Tour Operators and Travel Agents

Discussions regarding Tour Operators and Travel Agents
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Good points raised there. Steve.

I agree wholeheartedly with you and i think the practise of you paying extra for good flight times only to have them changed to rubbish flight times ought to stopped and at the very least your 'extra' money refunded to you.

The only good thing I will say is that we have taken our young grandchildren many times on 'rubbish flight times - (to Turkey, they are always rubbish)' and the kids never had a problem with flying late at night. They slept through the flights and again as soon as we got in the hotel rooms. The only thing is if it is a late flight back to the UK we always book the room for one extra night and so have the room up until the coach arrives.
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Denny I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to holidays...well not, lets say I like to think it all through and plan it all.

So things like late check out on rooms are taken in when booking flights, this flight would mean waiting around half a day with no room if we can't book the room on (and I know in August this year we can't as the hotel is at capacity), I think a 6am flight means an hour in taxi (5am), 2 hours at airport (3am) and getting up and getting ready (2am)...so I wouldn't book that flight.. I would even look at booking another day for a better flight... so once its all booked and sorted I don't want it changing ...

You look at what time you get into resort and think with this flight it will give us time to get changed and have a drink/food before bed time.. or you think it will be a long day and we will arive at a good time to check in and get our heads down ready for a full day tomorrow... and then they change it so you are arriving 2 hours later and meaning you won't sleep as well and won't make that early start the same etc...
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Flight schedules are subject to change, especially if booked up to a year or more in advance. For charter flights it needs to be a change of 12 hours or more before it is regarded as a major change and you would be entitled to a refund. Anything less than this is regarded as a minor change and you would not get a refund.
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Luci thanks, I can see they are the rules etc, just wondered how they get away with it... you aren't talking about one or two people, its hundreds of people having their plans changed... and why ? can they know the plan is suddenly going to have a delay so many weeks in advance?... is it them not able to get a pilot there ?... ??
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The worst change I ever had was getting phones at 4.30pm on the Friday to tell me my flight times had changed and also departing airport! We were flying at 10am on the Monday!
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I had a flight cancelled at short notice (less than a week!)..............and the replacement flight was 24 hours later!!
The saving grace was that the replacement flight was from my local airport rather than Gatwick, so I saved a shedload of money travelling up ..and I put the squeeze on the TA to provide a 5* hotel room for the night lost in the originally booked accommodation. :tup
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I well understand where you are coming from Steve and agree that it is not acceptable. Whilst the TOs claim that they are only responding to customer demand to for them to publish brochures earlier and earlier they have a duty of care. In my opinion the flight times etc are an advertisement and the ASA should be taking them to task. It is illegal to advertise something that you knowingly cannot deliver. The number of times they change things suggests to me they are often well aware that they cannot deliver.

fwh
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i am sure dazbo will be able to explain this better, but the CAA only confirm exact flight slots to the airlines a certain time in advance; and this is certainly less than a year in advance.
what the airlines, and holiday companies tend to do is to use the current years slots and hope that they get these same slots for the following year. due to all sorts of events outside their control these slots can, and usually do,get amended by the CAA so leaving the traveller with a like it or lump it situation.
all the holiday firms will have a disclaimer in their T&Cs to this effect, so it is not a rip off or false advertising it is just them saying that this is our best gestimate of your flight times, and the exact time will be notified when this is confirmed by CAA.
if you are not notified until right before you go then it is almost certainly the holiday company not telling you; and they could well have their own reasons for leaving it as late as possible :think . maybe it is time for someone to start campaigning about this.
what is criminal, in my opinion, is when the holiday companies charge you a premium for daytime flights, change your flights to night flights and don't refund the extra charge. the only way to stop this is for people affected to shout about it and take legal action against the holiday companies. a few court cases, with the relevant press coverage may put a stop to this practice.
maybe these last 2 points are something for the new owner here to take up as a way to get this website more noticed. i am sure the members here would be able to provide enough examples.
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You get the same problem with scheduled carriers. My recent flight to Nice which had a short 1 hour connection in FFM thatbecame a 4 hour stopover and, on a recent trip to the States, a two hour connection became a 5 hour wait due to changes in flight times. Not satisfactory but something we have to live with unfortunately.
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Of course, you can get the opposite problem to busdriver's examples. About 15 years ago I was working in Belfast and needed to get home to Cardiff in the late afternoon. The TA routed me via Manchester - the only problem was that the Manchester-Cardiff flight time got changed to an earlier one; nobody told me,so I arrived in Manchester on the incoming flight to find that the Cardiff flight had left. I showed BA (?) my itinerary and they agreed that there had been a c**k up - so they taxied me back to Cardiff!!!Didn't get home til midnight -but better than being stuck in Manchester airport til the next Cardiff flight in the morning!!
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Back in 2006 I posted a thread on flight changes. In my case my flights were changed by 11hours 55 minutes both ends, only 5 minutes less than the major change condition that was in place then. Of course the holiday companies have their backs covered , by their terms and conditions, or perhaps this would not happen so often. Booking early may have advantages, but there can be disadvantages as well, such as flight changes.
I no longer use the company concerned, although I am aware that it could happen with any booking.
Last year we had horrid flight times to Turkey , and I prayed they would be changed, but sods law.
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One of my very first posts in May 2005 was on the same subject - I was an early booker and First Choice altered the flight times (by a full day). Below is my post from that time - nothing changes does it? Except now it is over 70 days notice and the charges to the customer are £35!

I'm not really too worried about the change of flight as it is some time off. What annoys me really is that had I changed my flight date, the Tour Operator would have immediately charged me £20 per person for an amendment. It appears that the operator can change the flight and nothing is offered if the change is over 56 days before the holiday. I'm not after any compensation, just a letter informing me of the change.
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If I book a holiday 12 months in advance I would always assume that my flight time could be changed by up to 12 hours at the least, it's mentioned in everyones terms and conditions ad nauseum. I know it's often not convenient for folk, but the complexities of aircraft travel are such that there is no way i would expect things to be written in tablets of stone.

The last flight we were on we were held in the air for an extra 15 mins. The captain explained that a load of easyjet planes had just appeared from nowhere & had been given permission to land before us :duh

The attitude that it is my flight and I booked it a year in advance so it must run eacact on time seems totally unrealistic in the modern world of air travel. Nobody would set out to drive from London to Birmingham & expect it to take the exact same time everyday.

I do think though that if you have paid a massive supplement to travel at a less antisocial time & are moved to an antisocial time they should refund you the difference, and would go for a refund if it happened to me, but would expect to have to write multipule letters & probably threaten them with the small claims court to get anywhere. :really

Doe :sun2
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Doe, yes I can understand delays, problems, lots of easy jet planes doing worm hole jumps and getting in the way.... however these changes are being made 1,2,4,5... weeks/months ahead of time... so they are changing it before any of those sorts of problems would come into play. I can understand my plane being delayed on the day due to extra flights landing or problems etc, but these changes are being programmed in months in advance.
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No matter what get out clause in their T&Cs it is still advertising that is misleading people.
Suppose ASDA or one of the other supermarkets advertised that butter would be Two Pence per Pound for the month of December against the normal price and people flocked to buy it yet could only purchase it at £5.00 per pound. There would be uproar - but Asda then say in their T&Cs that the offer was subject to them being able to buy it at that price.
The ASA would be down on them like a ton of bricks. Asda would say that their T&Cs covered them - just as the TOs say about flight times. Even worse how many people know or have read the Asda T&Cs.
There are several reasons why the TOs get away with such practice.
The T&Cs are printed in a type face that is far smaller than any offer. If they had to use 14 point Roman they might actually think about them. They are difficult and complicated to read that the average person does not understand them.
Very few people actually have the money to go up against them in court. The actual mechanism for complaints is intentionally slow and complicated so people finish up just dropping the whole thing.
As Steve (AskCy) states they often know weeks and months in advance but do not tell people. This of course makes it very hard for people to find an alternative holiday at a price they can afford.

the list goes on as I am sure you all can add other reasons but nothing will change unless people actually complain, and having done so follow it through to the end. Copy letters of complaint to the media and Trading Standards. Yes it is a pain but if enough people do it -and keep doing it - then they will be forced to change things.
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jimd-f wrote:
i am sure dazbo will be able to explain this better

AskCy wrote:
why are they allowed to do this ?

There's not much more I can add really that hasn't already been mentioned. Fights can change for any number of reasons, especially when booked a long way in advance. A 2 hour change in departure time isn't that significant in the overall scheme of things although it obviously has an impact on bookings, especialy those that are travelling flight only and have taxi's etc lined up. From a passengers perspective, depending on who you've booked with and the T&C's, there's nothing you can do about it. It's not always the airline that changed the departure time, it can be an ATC change due to slot restrictions or airport handling for example. It's inconvenient, but that's aviation, things sometimes change.

Darren
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The ASA are a pretty spineless bunch in my opinion, and that`s from first hand experience. Trading standards not a lot different.
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