I wonder if Corfu is suffering, as in terms of a holiday destination it is an 'old' destination from the 1920's. The 'newer' Ionian Islands such as Zakynthos and Kefalonia don't seem to have the same volume of AI's (from what I see in the brochures), they appear to have the 'mixture of the both' that is more desirable.

Yes I think you are quite right, Corfu has had mass tourism for longer and is consequently feeling the ill effects sooner, but unless there is a change in strategy somewhere other Greek islands will suffer the same fate.

I do agree with Kazee that AI's may be here to stay as people tend to vote with their wallets and if AI is giving them what they need they will continue to be used. At the risk of sounding cynical, many people are not interested in their own economys let alone that of somewhere they spend 2 weeks once every couple of years.

I see no prospect in companies abandoning the AI concept whilst they can still make money at it, the second that they do not make money the AI complexes will be dropped.

I have no problem with AI being part of the future, but not AI being the entire future, after all whatever happened to a free choice?

If there were regulations relating to wage rates paid, local workers being used, and crucially rates paid to hotel owners, you would see an immediate slow down of the AI market in Greece. this low cost AI substitute ( for it is not true AI in any sense) relies on a low cost operation, which only can survive at the cost of local people's wage rates and jobs.

I can only say I feel sad that some people apparently show no care for others, after all they will protest about animal testing, fox hunting and any number of subjects, but when it comes to real people and real lives, there's not the enthuiasm. How many people who went to an AI can name the person that served their last meal or poured their last drink, or the person who cleaned their room or the driver who took them from the airport?

It's sad that travel is becoming an entirely inpersonal thing where the people are becoming an almost invisible part of some great machine that provides holidays.

My great joy when travelling abroad is the friends that I have that live there, it's only right that such people should have a fair crack of the whip. I am just relieved that there is no way that I am going to join the "don't care" generation.

Perhaps people genuinely do no longer care, but at least they cannot claim that they do not know the facts, that's a start.

I appreciate what you say about inflation existing everywhere and the Greek people desiring that which we all do, ie a decent standard of living and thus us not being able to get a meal for 2 pounds. I was looking at the wider context of Turkey opening its doors to mass tourism and also not the true Caribbean, but the 'Spanish' Caribbean of Cuba, Mexico, and the DR costing little more than Greece. I feel this must have taken its told on Greek tourism, as these opportunities just weren't available to normal working Brits (and probably Germans) 25 to 30 years ago.

As the amount of tourist destinations grows, so the pressure increases on the existing ones, the Greek islands including Corfu (& Kos) are still very popular, but there is a risk that some people will go elsewhere because they can not get the kind of holiday they want because the tour operators are not allowing them to have it, i.e: AI or nothing as it is rapidly becoming.

Perhaps Stelios will come to the rescue and open up low costs flights, but I think the cost of aircraft fuel on the 3 to 4 hour flights might be an issue for that type of operation.

Stelios can afford to fly an hour further from the UK by going to his only Greek location; Athens, so I do not think that this is the issue. I am sure that any number of lower cost operators would like to serve the Greek islands, but obviuosly something stops them.

I don't know what this is, but where there is a lack of fact rumour abounds:

Some people say that the landing fees at the Greek airports are higher, if they are then this is clearly an issue for the greek governemnt to address.

Others believe that the virtual cartel of tour operators will try to prevent a lower cost operator coming in, again speculation. But if true shows an amazing atitude where they seem quite happy to put small Greek businesses to the wall, but scream when somebody comparable wants to compete on level terms with them.

Regarding your last paragraph. I fear big business has no conscience in these matters looking only to shareholders and profits.

I do think your point that AI's are aimed mainly at families will ultimately help to maintain/restore the diversity of holidays on offer. There is little in an AI for the 18 to 25 year old, and I would imagine older holiday makers may find them too overrun with children to make for a peaceful holiday.

My hope is that by taking my kids to Greece/Turkey etc (albeit in an AI for a couple of years) I may instill an interest of a particular country by showing them what it has to offer. Hopefully they may then choose to return in years to come as young adults and so tourism goes on.

I do find it confusing/interesting that Half Board hotels are not seen as a problem in the same way as AI. As presumably guests here, it could also be argued, may contribute little to the local economy as well if eating on propery all the time. Is it that these tend to be owned and managed in a different way?

This a terrific debate. Net Detective, you've kicked it all off again from somewhere close to where I was coming from a month or so back in respect of Alcudia and Mallorca. I would pretty much agree with all you have to say, and echo that much of this is, or may become, the reality here.

Saliently you refer to the Greek government patting themselves on the back because of increased tourist numbers. Ditto here. But the businesses still aren't getting the same levels of trade that they were some years back. There is a similar pattern in the movement of tourists as you observe.

But I also agree with Kazee and doepsmc when it comes to people voting with their wallets and to the fact that most people don't give a damn about economies. I don't think that's being cynical. Crucially though I can't believe that the growth of AIs is in the wider economic interest of a community such as Alcudia and - it would appear - in Greece, too.

I happen to think that the lower levels of trade here are not all due to AIs, despite the numbers of visitors being high. It strikes me that visitors are a lot less willing to spend, spend, and the euro has unquestionably upped prices across the board.

As to the Greek government intervening (doepsmc's point), I can't speak about that, but here there is an opposition-led lobby against AIs, which has forced there to be some monitoring, whatever trhat means. Trouble is that there is also quite a degree of chuminess between leading politicians and the hotel industry.

On the final point about half-board, while myself also questioning the 95% figure Net Detective gives, the fact is that an AI - as it offers drinks and food, sometimes on a 24-hour basis - removes or lessens the incentive to go out. That seems only logical. If you've paid once, you're not going to pay twice. With half board you have only so much food, and drinks are all separate. Traditionally, most hotels have operated half-board, and it used to - seemingly - offer a happy compromise.

Once again, great debate.

Regarding your last paragraph. I fear big business has no conscience in these matters looking only to shareholders and profits.

I don't fear it, I absolutely know it! Having dealt with the tour operator concerned with many of the more recent AI's in Greece and seen their tactics, and the tactics of the people they do business with I know that they have no scruples and few morals.

I do find it confusing/interesting that Half Board hotels are not seen as a problem in the same way as AI. As presumably guests here, it could also be argued, may contribute little to the local economy as well if eating on propery all the time. Is it that these tend to be owned and managed in a different way?

Half board doesn't impact in the same way because people do still go out and visit the local town to at least some extent, half board also doesn't get mentioned in the area I refer to because as far as I know there isn't any there now, year by year all the previous half board hotels that I am aware of in the area have gone AI.

I happen to think that the lower levels of trade here are not all due to AIs, despite the numbers of visitors being high. It strikes me that visitors are a lot less willing to spend, spend, and the euro has unquestionably upped prices across the board.

The problems cannot be solely laid at the door of AI, there are a variety of reasons for a downturn in trade, but it is very revealing to see that whilst tourist numbers to Greece increase yearly the income from tourism is going down.

Trouble is that there is also quite a degree of chuminess between leading politicians and the hotel industry.

I would describe it as downright corruption, although your phrase is more polite. The Greek Governement were so concerned about any risk of "chuminess" when the problems were discovered in Corfu relating to the building permission that they took the decision not to allow the build rather than leave it at local council level.

Reflecting on the Half-Board question, I assume these properties are the ones that are 'ripe for picking' when it comes to AI take overs, as they tend to be larger than B&B and SC establishments. The future may be AI's and apartment blocks with little else in-between.

Due to the way TO's organise their pricing structures, I do feel there is an optimum time for visiting an AI in a families financial profile. Those with kids between 2 and 6 are likely to get poor value in terms of what they are paying food and drink wise, and like myself with youngish teens to pay 800pounds per child from age 12 is also poor value. (my son eats like a sparrow on holiday and only drinks water!)

Perhaps this may also help to retain the diversity if people revert to former patterns of holiday-making as their needs change and evolve.
The counter argument I suppose is that once people try AI many seem to like it and therefore it can become a habit.

I assume the link you put in earlier to the hotel on a cliff was another First Choice 'own goal' property as I tend to think of them.

Glad you like the debate andrew711, I was worried we had bored everyone into submission.

I assume the link you put in earlier to the hotel on a cliff was another First Choice 'own goal' property as I tend to think of them.

Yes, it is the Kefalonia Aqua Beach Club, abandoned by First Choice on the 10th May 2006 after suffering subsidence - It's future is unknown at this stage, it does however, offer a more rustic, back to nature holiday experience for those that may be interested.

http://kefalonia.smugmug.com/gallery/482397/1/63756991

The main reason we started going AI is because as soon as the kids made friends in the complex they didnt want to leave..even for a drink in town and we would end up paying expensive bar prices in the hotel.I know i shouldn't let the kids rule us but you know how it is...if the kids are happy then we are happy.I'm sure when the kids no longer come with us we will go back to self catering.We have just come back from turkey and did go out a few times(with much complaining from kids) but even in turkey it cost us £40 and that was no pudd and the kids didnt have starters so thats £560 just on dinner!! We only paid £2200 for the whole holiday and the hotel was lovely.But dont get me wrong,if money was no object we would definetly go self catering....nicole

Just as an aside.

One of the things that became difficult with SC was that in certain locations/Countrys finding decent places to eat wasn't always easy. You'd find a good one the first or second night then try somewhere else the next which was awful or indifferent so be dissappointed. We were getting to the stage where we would eat in the same restaurant for 9 or 10 times on a fortnight's holiday. Just as boring in it's way as eating in an AI/HB place for a fortnight and if you have researched your hotel properly less disappointing and less expensive.

I appreciate you can go to places where there are huge choices of good restaurants but this isn't always the case.

Don't know that it is an aside. Quite pertinent in fact. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, AIs make total sense where there is a lack of infrastructure (and that includes restaurants). Where there are "huge choices of good restaurants", one has to acknowledge that there is another force (or forces) at work driving the AI. But maybe Nicole's hit the nail. Calculate the savings and the decision to go AI is a no-brainer. And the kids are all important. Time was when they were less so, like when I was a lad. Not now. For sure, if the kids are happy, mum and dad are happy. Doesn't always work the other way round.

None of this makes me any less uneasy about the negative consequences of AIs, but as a straightforward consumer decision, regardless of notions of true "holiday experiences", conscience about local economies, the motives of TOs and politicians, and questionable employment practices (all valid issues in my view), the AI does offer advantages.

Hi peeps

AI will not take over as repeated by another member, AI in the main are built up where there is little entertainment and restaurants. for example the Caribbean.
Yes I appreciate there are AI built around Europe where they probably did not need it, loads of hustle and bustle surrounding you, but it does come down to the wallet with parents who have teenagers. I appreciate what doepsmc stated about how small amount her son eats whilst he is on holiday, albeit I am sure she was still better off going AI than going SC. (sorry Doe for using you as example ).
Diversity for all holidaymakers is the key and yes in moderation. People prefer SC, BB,HB,FB and AI for their own personal reasons. I am not flippant in my approach on this thread and I sincerely do care about the economy but it has to be each to their own to suit the holidaymakers alike.

Last year we went AI and SC, this year FB and next year 2 AI, therefore I do share a variety. By the way my SC was at Greece

kind regards

Kazee

Hi Kazee
Very happy to be your example, (I was a bit tounge in cheek about my youngest, living on water but he didnt eat much, think it was too fancy)
I also take this seriously as a subject and I'm sure you are right it would have cost me more in terms of food and drink if I had been SC.

One of the problems I have with people who knock AI (I'm not talking about Net Detectives well reasoned arguments) is that they constantly rubbish the food. As you know the food at the Belcekic Beach is superb, it's known for it, but also the Louis hotel I stayed at in Crete last year had great food.

We like small uncommercialised places, and the volume of good eateries seems limited in these, in the Algarve we found ourselves going out earlier and earlier each night to get a place in the best restaurant of about six in the town, it became quite stressful.

Most money goes on food and drink if you go SC, but this year we managed loads of trips and sight seeing plus endless amounts of shopping, it seemed more fun and I felt I still poured a fair amount of money into the local economy.
Doe

Never been to Greece but have been AI a good few times ,the last few years has only been with one child [aged 9/10/11 at the time]# and we find it really good value for money.We have been to Tunisia ,Majorca etc

We don't stay in the hotel,we eat out in local restaaurants etc but find that the majority of AI hotels are OK especially Tunisia They are excellent in fact superb food wise.

Wefind that going AI gives you the extra spending money to do the trips etc that you woul;dn't be able to afford otherwise.
So I would say to anyone that hasn't done AI Give it a try
We've always had a great time!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great if on a budget

I went A/l for the first time this year, and would definately recommend it for those with young children or younger children mine are 15. After breakfast we would go out for the day, either sight seeing or to the beach. I would pay for the sun loungers and parasols which were free if i had stayed at the hotel , used to buy my drinks and snacks to take with us for the day , which we had already paid for by being A/l, would go back early evening to shower and get ready for evening meal and depending what was on the menu decided whether we ate in or out. We did see those families who didn't step outside the hotel once there coach had dropped them off who wanted to take full advantage of what A/l they had paid for , but in saying that there was never any drunken behaviour or arguments within families. I would definately do A/l again .

Hi

I swore I would never go A/I, but we tried it for a week in May and to be honest it was fantastic ! We to have children (11 and 14) and the A/I on drinks alone was, in our opinion, unbeatable. We had fantastic food, branded drinks, bottles of water, nice wine with our meals etc and as the week went by and I totted everything up, there was no way we would have had such value going HB. I do feel we were lucky with the Hotel though, it was lovely. So much so I have just booked another A/I for our main holiday next July. We have just returned from 2 weeks in Thassos, HB and whilst everything was good, the price of the drinks in the Hotel were completely ridiculous - I'm afraid I've been converted !!

Joo