Whilst I appreciate that people come on here asking for help perhaps it might help all concerned if they were to complete a short survey first.

Tour Operator and/or agent if applicable. For example Thomson booked direct or with Joe Bloggs Holidays.

Resort/Hotel/Accommodation

Date of travel

Number in party.

Special requests and are they actually shown shown on the documents or did you just ask?

From the above we would know if it was a Package holiday or Dynamic Package – For those who do not know a Dynamic Package is where a third party (Joe Bloggs Travel) arranges each part of the holiday, flight, transfer, hotel to suit your particular needs unlike a Tour Operator such as Thomson who then puts them together first and then offers the package. A subtle difference but when advising/helping different rules apply.

Anything else people add is their own version of events but we would have the essential information when we answer.

I would be interested in what others and Admin/Mods think. Could it be done?

fwh

I have read this 3 times and do not fully understand, i know i type things down sometimes, do not read it back and then realise it does not make sense.

It appears to me that your problems Jackie are rather more complex than we first thought or read.

I do agree with fwh though, sometimes in big complex stories we require point bulletins to make it easier to understand. Perhaps when you read this, you could do a 1-10 for example so we know at what stages these changes happened to see where you are at.

I do hope you get it all resolved though.

This topic has become a little confusing when trying to establish exactly what has happened and where. You are right in the fact that it all needs to laid out bullet pointed as to what took place where and when from booking untill now.
I do exactly the same thing when i deal with customer complaints, if its very long winded and not making much sense, i do exactly that, bullet points from the letter and then try and work out what has happened and what i can do to resolve it.
I think it would also help the poster too so that they are then fully aware of everything without it being messed up.

Mmm, glad it wasn't just me getting confuzzled. This is a long post, so bear with me. It takes a bit of unravelling, but here's what I think - just my thoughts, not saying I'm right.
FWH -- A slip of the fingers I presume? Direct Holidays (part of Thomas Cook) is entirely different to Direct Travel ( whoever they are)??????

Direct Travel was associated with Time-Share, and a few years ago was closed down by the Department of Trade and Industry after fleecing millions of pounds from people, who never got what they thought they were buying into
So now in the murky world of time-share/holiday vacations or whatever other name they call themselves to find a loop-hole in the present regulations governing this dubious industry, it could be a number of outfits with the name Direct - EG: Direct Promotions, Holidays Direct or Direct Resort Promotions or Direct Resorts International.

In this economical climate, time-share sales have taken a nose-dive, so a couple of years ago, CLC or Club La Costa decided to branch out into letting empty units in their resorts by using a third party and advertising on sites such as Expedia, Venere, Travel Republic, Alpha rooms etc....and on the Spanish side Smilo.
Smilo were part of one of Spain's biggest consortiums known as Orizonia, they (Orizonia) ceased trading in February and filed for bankruptcy on the 25th April, thousands of people lost their jobs, and they would have been the supplier used by TR.

As you can imagine, the people who have already bought into this 'exclusive' club, they are not happy at having to now share it with any Tom Dick or Harry on a cheapo holiday and they are finding that the weeks they wanted are unavailable, but see those weeks available on sites.

When they first started doing this, CLC created 'CLC leisure' to take care of any bookings, this company now seems to have been dissolved.
Then we get another name into the frame, Ambassador Travel or Ambassador Holidays Ltd which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Club La Costa (UK) Plc.
They are arranging things for those who want a holiday in one of CLC's resorts and you can also book direct with CLC, so, I don't know why the name Direct Travel has sprung up again.

So, after agreeing to go on one of CLC's promotion weeks, Jackie decided to take another week in Sunningdale village (as a holiday) - paying for the accommodation and this was booked by Direct Travel???.
They (DT) booked with TR, but it could have been any of the sites CLC are using - it just happened to be TR, probably because they did a price comparison and TR worked out the cheapest and that's how TR have got dragged into this.

This resort is unsuitable for the disabled or those with mobility problems, but I doubt CLC cared, they just want to get you there and proceed with the hard-sell, and having no luck at this property because of its location, they'll proceed to offer another one of their resorts.

However, if the person who took and arranged the booking for the extra week knew about her husband's health problems beforehand, they should never have proceeded with the booking on TR.....Remember though that these people may have never been to Sunningdale Village or Tenerife for that matter, a sale is a sale and commission bells start ringing.

Surprise surprise, CLC will take no responsibility if something goes wrong and say requests are not guaranteed.
Section 8
http://www.clcleisure.com/sunningdale/booking-conditions

Do they or do they not have rooms that would have been suitable for you?

Personally, I doubt it and whilst from the outside these properties all look the same, they may have been configured differently inside by the owners, but to adapt an apartment for the disabled, it restricts your letting opportunities and becomes available only for the disabled. Sometimes that can be a 'gold-mine' if it's in the right location ... Sunningdale Village is not and some sites actually say so.
http://www.hotelscomparison.com/spain/t/tenerife/search-hotel-clc_sunningdale_village_1.php

If Jackie didn't book the extra week independently by going onto TR site herself (and it appears that she didn't) then the paper trail goes back to Club La Costa and whoever they are using to arrange and book the extra week....Maybe Club La Costa Holidays.
My own personal view, having read their T&C's and a load of other stuff to do with this outfit, is that she will get no satisfaction at all, because they've got it all wrapped up in their T&C's.
In future and considering her husband's health problems, maybe spending time doing a lot of research before booking, will save her a lot of heartache.

Sanji x

Yes it was a Senior Moment when I put DH and not DT. I also wonder who Direct Travel is as according to Companies House Direct Travel Ltd no longer trade. There are several companies that use "Direct Travel" in their title but that tells us nothing.

The problem really is that people are fooled into thinking these companies are what they are not. A fancy brochure, a smooth talking sales person and a free holiday sounds great but they are simply a way of parting you from your money.

Over time here on HT we have heard many tales of woe. It is fine to say do your research but by the time we hear about the problems it is a little late in the day all we can do is try to help resolve things.

fwh

Good bit of detective work there Sanji

Having read Sanjis post, now it all becomes clearer. Let us hope this lady gets something sorted and not continue banging her head on the wall.

It is fine to say do your research but by the time we hear about the problems it is a little late in the day all we can do is try to help resolve things.

I don't know how to take that comment, I thought I had, if only by trying to explain some of the layers to this complex problem, but if you can do any better than me, take a trip over to the Isle of Man or to Cadiz in Southern Spain.
Harsh as it may seem, if I can find the information, then so can others - and then maybe some of the problems wouldn't arise, because you'd give some of these companies a wide-berth.

Research won't solve all the problems, but it'll go a long way to avoiding the majority of them - and your favourite saying ------ read the small print.

Sanji

The information is there if you take time to look for it as very ably demonstrated by Sanji in her reply, but my comment is still valid. We only come into the equation when people already have the problem.

Our efforts to assist do at times draw accusations that we are in cahoots with the TO etc - that as we all know is not true. It could be said we are their worst enemy with the efforts put in by our members to assist. Many hours often being spent researching to be able to provide help and assistance to those with a problem. And it seems that many who we do help often cannot bother to say thanks.

I do wonder at times how so many manage to get themselves into a fix in the first place - when they have a problem then they seem able to use the internet to ask what they can do so why cannot they use it before the event and so prevent themselves getting into a mess in the first place.

fwh

Have to agree you did a fantastic bit of detective work Sanji trying to get to the bottom of this rather complex and confusing problem.

I like fwh's idea, that leisure lad who's in the industry agrees with, suggesting bullet points regarding new posts in the holiday complaints forum, even if people then have to go on to explain things further in text.

Maybe Phil, Chris or Glynis could consider a locked sticky at the top of the complaints forum suggesting bullet point to be listed?

Half the time we can't tell if folk have booked a package holiday, a dynamic package, or something like this weird hybrid we have here which seems to involves a holiday club (formerly timeshare?).

Doe

doe wrote:

Half the time we can't tell if folk have booked a package holiday, a dynamic package, or something like this weird hybrid we have here which seems to involves a holiday club (formerly timeshare?).

Doe

We can't tell , I doubt if they can tell ?? Go out in the street and ask 100 people what a dynamic booking is ?
Ask all the people on here to clearly and fully explain what a dynamic package is and people would get most of it right , but probably miss bits out by mistake , hand on heart I don't really know the full in's and outs's , so take the average Joe Bloggs out there who sees a great deal on the Internet , there are some nice pics and a few words of how wonderful it all is , and the best price in the world . There you go , booking a great holiday is as easy as picking a tin of beans off the shelf . ..... Now we know its not and I imagine people on here spend quite a lot of time researching stuff and read between the lines of all the agents guff , so we get what we want , or are happy with . Other people who come along obviously don't spend a bit of time researching , perhaps they have other interests or a busy life , and they just trust in the company / supplier / operator , and why shouldn't they ? They are here sitting in the UK buying from a legitimate company etc and we have laws to protect us when buying things .... What could possibly go wrong ????? !!!!!!

They then come on here because the accommodation isn't available and they've been offered unsuitable or inferior alternatives , they might have their flights changed etc etc And all of a sudden they are asked ,
Did you book a dynamic package ? Who was the agent ? Are they your supplier ? Who is the operator ? Did they subcontract your accommodation ? Did they get it from a bed bank ?
They just think they have booked a holiday !!! Which in itself should be an enjoyable and pleasant experience .
It sounds more complicated than quantum physics , I know this is the reality and some people on here try to sympathise and offer help and I'm not knocking that , I know I cannot help or advise because I have no experience of booking with these companies etc , and no desire to either , I suppose it would be easy for me to think I don't really care , and its their problem for booking with a cheapo company , but I do feel really sorry and upset that someone has worked hard and paid for something that is not what they expected . I don't think it's always ignorance , perhaps it's misplaced trust .

I agree that if people want to air a complaint it's easier if full info is listed in bullet points , so people with an understanding can make positive points to resolve the issue , but I would imagine that those who complain have already contacted the person responsible for the booking and perhaps they are passing the buck , which seems to be an underlying problem with these type of booking , no one seems to be accepting responsibility too easily.

It's easy enough to make a sticky post outlining a clear way to post in this forum but I do wonder how many newcomers would bother to read it. Sometimes if we have too many stickies they are ignored.

If someone would like to write out a post, clearly, then I've no objections to making it a sticky. I probably won't be online until Sunday however as I've a lot to do tomorrow so there's no need to rush

andy66 wrote:

They then come on here because the accommodation isn't available and they've been offered unsuitable or inferior alternatives , they might have their flights changed etc etc And all of a sudden they are asked ,
Did you book a dynamic package ? Who was the agent ? Are they your supplier ? Who is the operator ? Did they subcontract your accommodation ? Did they get it from a bed bank ?

Andy66, the underlying problem is that too many people when making a booking with on-line companies like TR tick the box that says they have read the Terms & Conditions when they haven't. If they had then it would be easy for them to be able to tell us here whether they had booked a dynamic package or not and they would then also know that if it was a dynamic package that the accommodation had been booked via a separate supplier and not the company running the website. Similarly, if they read the documentation sent to them to confirm their booking they would know exactly who that supplier was etc. All too often it seems that some people don't bother to read what they are agreeing to until after something goes wrong. Or even worse, don't bother reading it at all until someone here says that they need to read it and then tell us what it says so that we can advise them which company their contract is with for the part that had gone wrong and the best way of trying to get some sort of redress.

TR does exactly what it says on the tin - but all too frequently some people don't bother reading what it says on the tin in the first place. The result is that they have no idea what it is that they have actually bought. It's a bit like never bothering to read the labels on the packaging when buying stuff in a shop and then complaining only after you have got home and opened the box that you've only just realised that you wanted one thing but seem to have bought another.

SM

SMa wrote:

TR does exactly what it says on the tin - but all too frequently some people don't bother reading what it says on the tin in the first place. The result is that they have no idea what it is that they have actually bought. It's a bit like never bothering to read the labels on the packaging when buying stuff in a shop and then complaining only after you have got home and opened the box that you've only just realised that you wanted one thing but seem to have bought another.

SM

Or in another way buying a tin with a beans label only to get home open it and find out that its plum tomatoes inside ( although it would still go very nicely with your English breakfast , it's not what you really wanted) .
If this was to happen , you would go back to the shop and they would say sorry and change it , this is a conventional way of selling , why not sell their holidays in the same way ? Or should we all have T&C s to do what suits us ?
If they sold TV s and I bought a 3D smart TV , I wouldn't want to be fobbed off with a CRT .

On another thread a polite young chap is disappointed about being moved to " hotel B " when he booked " hotel A " the cost difference was £80 to £120 , but no compensation , they wanted hotel A because hotel B had bad reviews , so they did research and still got fobbed off , and now they are doing him out of £40 !!!

I'm sure they have many customers who receive what they book , and all goes well , and they have favourable reviews , but in some instances they do fall short and leave people disappointed , and I'm generalising with the multitude of these companies not specifically TR .

On another thread about ice lolly they book flights through ryanair which is against their T&C s , what happens if those flights sell out ? It's just tell the customer to change their flight days or pay more and they can hide behind the T&C s , to me it's just shoddy service to people who have paid good money , all neatly legal because of the T&C s , I know people don't read them , and they should , but hey we all have a choice .

Maybe a more appropriate question to ask would be

"what does your Atol certificate say on it?"

From what the Atol states the cover is for, you can tell how it's been booked. A dynamic package can be a true package, and independent high street agents do sell lot's of them. Some OTAs do as well (although not many). The majority of the holidays we sold were packaged dynamically by ourselves, but in that case we acted as a principal, not an agent.

So if we all choose not to read the T&Cs and then it all rips wide open at the seams it's pointless screaming and shouting about it afterwards....

I've lost count of the number of phone calls I received while working in the post departure section of FCH when holidaymakers rang to say they had left something behind that half the time they didn't know the name of the hotel or even the resort they had been staying in for the last fortnight.

It's true, hardly anyone reads the documentation even after they have received it and have no idea which company they are travelling with and that goes for those who have booked package holidays too! Experiencing them arriving from the inbound flight and making their way to the coaches while we're waiting to collect friends is often like watching something from a zombie movie. They just merrily follow the people in front of them and you can count on one hand the number of them who actually have their paperwork to hand so they can check it.

Part of the problem is most passengers do not understand or are aware there is a difference between a travel agent and a tour operator. So if they booked with some local agent shop in the street but the package is supplied by Thomson or First Choice when asked, you will find they will tell you they are travelling with the local agent. Whereas those who book through a tour operator website will generally get it right. So when you throw in the equation of bed bank suppliers, it's no wonder they get confused.

However, with the post written by JACKIE12 - if she had posted as I suggested - with each individual action as it happened in a date order list, perhaps we could have got to the bottom of it by now? As it stands, we've been led one way and after a further snippet of information we've all been led off down another track.

It sounds like Sanji may have worked it out - but unless she comes back and confirms this or explains the details from start to finish, we may be none the wiser.

It may be an idea to put up some kind of sticky on how to format a post but I doubt many will read it. You only need to look at how many reply to a post without reading the previous posts. The posts that get dragged up months and sometimes years down the line because someone (usually a new member) has only read the post immediately above where they will reply clearly makes this point.

Many of the first time posters simply use it as a sounding board to get their frustrations off their chest and aren't really looking for answers. Those are generally the ones who don't come back again after they've received about half a dozen helpful replies... I do think that some feel HT is a "review" site and so are happy they have done their bit by writing of their experience.

I don't think there's any other way to do it. I've just had a look at this link which is the first place someone should check if they wish to make a complaint: http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/forum/holiday-complaint-read-here-first-t57959.html

Clicking on the link in that sticky takes you to this huge list of choices: http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/forum/holiday-advice-f47.html

It's too confusing and too time consuming for someone who feels they have an issue they want to tell us about or if they are indeed seeking an answer. They want to post their rant or question and will simply head to the link http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/forum/holiday-complaints-f49.html and if they don't see a topic already active for their hotel or agent/tour operator/bed bank agent they will just start a new topic which is the option displayed at the bottom of the list.

The only thing I can suggest is that the New Topic is amended to submit a standardised form which can ask the questions outlined by FWH but also break the form into separate sections rather like the Review format: http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/write-review/
It doesn't need to have Dropdown selections for destinations etc as that's not necessary. It could however, have sections about: the booking process, the travel part of the journey (flight, coach, ferry etc). the hotel/accommodation etc and make it obligatory that at least one section is completed.

What it should have though is some simple selections:
Do you need help with a complaint? (YES/NO) - if "yes" is answered, they continue with the form.
If they answer "no" - it should lead to another question: Do you wish to leave your comments/review about your holiday/hotel? (YES/NO) - a "yes" should lead them to the Holiday Review section.
A "no" should perhaps take them to the Holiday Advice section of the forum.

Anyone else have other thoughts?

andy66 wrote:

On another thread about ice lolly they book flights through ryanair which is against their T&C s , what happens if those flights sell out ? It's just tell the customer to change their flight days or pay more and they can hide behind the T&C s , to me it's just shoddy service to people who have paid good money , all neatly legal because of the T&C s , I know people don't read them , and they should , but hey we all have a choice .

Ice Lolly don't book flights through Ryanair, they don't book anything. They are only a price comparison site. So even amongst people trying to give advice on here, there is confusion about who acts in what capacity.

Many agents do sell Ryanair flights, including TR, when they know they shouldn't, and some agents sell packages including them (including one of the main Malta TO's). I'm dying to see the outcome of the court case against OTB. If Ryanair win, it will certainly make the rest of the agents selling RYR to think twice!!

andy66 wrote:

Or in another way buying a tin with a beans label only to get home open it and find out that its plum tomatoes inside ( although it would still go very nicely with your English breakfast , it's not what you really wanted) .
If this was to happen , you would go back to the shop and they would say sorry and change it , this is a conventional way of selling , why not sell their holidays in the same way ? Or should we all have T&C s to do what suits us ?
If they sold TV s and I bought a 3D smart TV , I wouldn't want to be fobbed off with a CRT .

Except it's rare that happens, read through all the complaints about on-line agencies here and what soon becomes clear is not that the label on the product is wrong but that the customer hasn't read the label. The complaint you quote is a case in point. The T&Cs are easy to find on Lowcostholidays site at

http://content.lowcostholidays.com/DataObjects/FlightTermsConditions/File/Lowcostholidays%20Terms%20and%20Conditions%20Flights.pdf

And the very first line section states

1. Your Booking

1.1 With Lowcostholidays you can book what you want. You may want only to book a flight, or only to book accommodation or you may want to book a flight and also accommodation. You must understand that it is you who creates your own booking(s) and who organizes it. We do not organize package arrangements of any sort. The consequence is that no booking you make will fall within the Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 (as amended). For each booking you make your contract for that booking is with the relevant supplier whether that is an airline or an accommodation provider; if you have made more than one booking for travel at the same time you will have separate contracts with each supplier. Please see paragraph 1.2 below in relation to financial protection arrangements.

The poster will have to take up his problem with whoever is the supplier for the accommodation - if only he'd read the very first of the T&Cs he would have known that he was indeed buying plum tomatoes and if he wanted baked beans he should have bought a product that said that on the label. I fear that this is going to be a hard lesson for a relative newcomer to holiday bookings to learn. One of the things that my Mum drummed into me from a an early age was to never sign anything without thoroughly checking what it was I was putting my name to. I didn't always do that - and most times it had no real detrimental effect but at least I always understood that I would only have myself to blame if it did.

I've got to the point where I'm probably not going to bother getting involved in threads on the Complaints section of this forum because I'm getting fed-up with the repeat scenario where someone books something without reading the T&Cs, comes on here and has a rant, has this pointed out to them that there is little that can be done now after the event, then has a rant against the poster and accuses them of being in the pay of the company they booked with. On occasions they will even rant against people who offer constructive advice and strategies about how they might be able to get it sorted - the OP here who started this particular thread being a case in point.

SM

Sunaddict wrote:

andy66 wrote:

On another thread about ice lolly they book flights through ryanair which is against their T&C s , what happens if those flights sell out ? It's just tell the customer to change their flight days or pay more and they can hide behind the T&C s , to me it's just shoddy service to people who have paid good money , all neatly legal because of the T&C s , I know people don't read them , and they should , but hey we all have a choice .

Ice Lolly don't book flights through Ryanair, they don't book anything. They are only a price comparison site. So even amongst people trying to give advice on here, there is confusion about who acts in what capacity.

Many agents do sell Ryanair flights, including TR, when they know they shouldn't, and some agents sell packages including them (including one of the main Malta TO's). I'm dying to see the outcome of the court case against OTB. If Ryanair win, it will certainly make the rest of the agents selling RYR to think twice!!

I do apologise for the wrong info , I think the confusion was from the Media Travel thread who must use ice lolly as a platform to advertise their prices , thank you so much for explaining what ice lolly actually are , silly me just thought it was that flavoured frozen water on a stick I was eating around the pool today

I did honestly admit on a post on page 3 that I know very little about these type of bookings and so offer no advice , my points are that I am dismayed at the problems people have and the poor service , admittedly through their own fault from not reading all the T&C s or buying something inappropriate for their needs , after all we all want to have a great holiday , so on that note , back to mine ....byeee