Hi,
I'm new to the forum and am researching a problem I've had with Mytravel. I'm wondering whether anyone can point me in the right direction whilst I'm wading through the numerous complaints about them!
At the beginning of the year they advertised MYT264 Faro - Manchester as being a 00:50 departure with a Manchester arrival time that was convenient for the start up of the train service home from the airport, so I booked it. Just before the trip they advised me that the flight had been retimed 4 hours earlier and would leave me stranded overnight at Manchester airport. When I complained they said "read the T&Cs - no refunds" - you could almost hear them grinning down the phone! The T&Cs do indeed say no refunds for "minor flight time changes". However, since then I have obtained documents from Faro airport which clearly show that that they do not permit take offs between 23:00 and 06:05 because they have no fire brigade cover - this was published to the airline industry and was in force at the time I booked. Despite correspondence between myself/Cheshire Trading Standards and Mytravel's huge legal department they are currently refusing to budge or even acknowledge that I have the documents which prove they sold me something they should have known they could never deliver.
As I am now preparing a County Court case against them I was wondering whether anyone else was caught out by the retiming of MYT264 (or MYT263 from Manchester) or has details of any other MYT flight advertised to operate at Faro (or any other airport) during the hours when the aiport was closed.
Mytravel's last reply quotes a reference to a case Lucas V Avro (part of their group) which they won, currently the only reference I can find to that case is in the index of a book on Child Abuse cases - I dread to think what it was about but it's probably doesn't involve the same issue. Anyone out there know for sure?
Hi Steve,
1. You will no doubt be aware that under the Package Holiday Regs a flight change of four hours would not be considered a significant change with regard to obtaining a refund. However, I understand your argument that
2. Lucas v Avro (1994) CLY 1444.
You have found it is a case reference in a paper about compensation in cases of child abuse. But in THIS German document it is cited as Luca v Auro (1994) CLY 1444 in the context of judgements against travel companies. I suggest the case is about compensation.
3. I've tried to locate details on the internet but failed. I can translate the citation as Lucas v Auro Current Law Yearbook of 1994, case 1444. A solicitor will have the volume of their bookshelves, so I recommend you take note of this from an earlier post on the forum
Best of luck and please let us know how you get on.
Peter
1. You will no doubt be aware that under the Package Holiday Regs a flight change of four hours would not be considered a significant change with regard to obtaining a refund. However, I understand your argument that
they sold me something they should have known they could never deliver.
2. Lucas v Avro (1994) CLY 1444.
You have found it is a case reference in a paper about compensation in cases of child abuse. But in THIS German document it is cited as Luca v Auro (1994) CLY 1444 in the context of judgements against travel companies. I suggest the case is about compensation.
3. I've tried to locate details on the internet but failed. I can translate the citation as Lucas v Auro Current Law Yearbook of 1994, case 1444. A solicitor will have the volume of their bookshelves, so I recommend you take note of this from an earlier post on the forum
The aim of this section of the holiday-truth website is to enable holidaymakers to get advice and assistance as soon as possible on any holiday complaints or problems encountered.
Our members will be able to offer you advice on how best to deal with your holiday complaints and how to deal with the Tour Operators. However please remember that this will be non qualified advice. We therefore suggest you seek professional assistance from someone qualified in Travel Law.
We have teamed up with Ros Fernihough, Travel Law Solicitor, to provide the best information available.
Ros has offered our members free impartial legal advice. Please note that Ros does not read or post on this board any contact to her must be made via :-
Tel :- 01922 621114
Best of luck and please let us know how you get on.
Peter
Any news on this one, please?
I see the original poster is still around, and I did a lot of research on that stated case.
Peter
I see the original poster is still around, and I did a lot of research on that stated case.
Peter
have obtained documents from Faro airport which clearly show that that they do not permit take offs between 23:00 and 06:05 because they have no fire brigade cover - this was published to the airline industry and was in force at the time I booked.
documents which prove they sold me something they should have known they could never deliver
Playing devils advocate.
Whilst that may have been stated by the authorities, it is also quite possible that discussions were taking place to rectify that problem.
TOs bring a lot of money to the economy and I have no doubt that they will have made representations in an effort to get cover established. It is financially beneficial for them if they can get those time slots opened up.
If that is the case and they had expectations of success, then advertising the flights can be justified.
You may have documents stating a policy applicable at that time, but can you prove that the operators were not endeavouring to deliver what they were advertising?
TOs and other companies do not deliberately mislead. The penalties are something they wish to avoid - as well as the publicity. They do however often advertise things that are difficult to achieve. To be fair the people who book are as guilty.
People do expect to be able to book far in front and and complain if things change.
Not long ago my daughter rang me and asked me what I was doing at Easter next year - She wanted me to commit to something. I could not and she thought I was being difficult.
We all have priorities and expect others to fit in with our own lifestyle. If only it was as simple.
As was stated earlier there is always a danger when booking so far in advance that times will change or flights be cancelled.
fwh
Peter - no, no progress yet. Ros' PA suggested talking to ABTA and they said it did seem to fall within their jurisdiction so I sent them copies of everything 2 weeks ago. So far not even an acknowledgement. I expect them to come back suggesting I spend £75 on arbitration, which apart from being more than it's worth would automatically stop me going to the Small Claims Court.
fwh - I had thought about the possibility that the curfew may have been changed since I bought the ticket so I got the airport to confirm it hadn't before I complained (just to prove how reasonable I am). What did change was the conditions under which they would allow extensions to opening hours for delayed flights, if there is any logic to what went on I'd guess someone at MyTravel heard something about that and got confused. However, from things I've read elsewhere on this site MyTravel seem to blunder from one fiasco to the next. For all I know they could have read the airport rules for somewhere else by mistake. If the airport had changed it's rules since I booked, or if MyTravel were making honest attempts to get them to open, you would imagine that MyTravel had something in writing about it and could have easily proved to either me or Cheshire Trading Standards that it was not their mistake and their offer to me in January was an honest one at the time. In fact they have refused to offer any explanation at all for the change, they simply say they have the right to change times and, by implication, passengers have no rights to know why.
fwh - I had thought about the possibility that the curfew may have been changed since I bought the ticket so I got the airport to confirm it hadn't before I complained (just to prove how reasonable I am). What did change was the conditions under which they would allow extensions to opening hours for delayed flights, if there is any logic to what went on I'd guess someone at MyTravel heard something about that and got confused. However, from things I've read elsewhere on this site MyTravel seem to blunder from one fiasco to the next. For all I know they could have read the airport rules for somewhere else by mistake. If the airport had changed it's rules since I booked, or if MyTravel were making honest attempts to get them to open, you would imagine that MyTravel had something in writing about it and could have easily proved to either me or Cheshire Trading Standards that it was not their mistake and their offer to me in January was an honest one at the time. In fact they have refused to offer any explanation at all for the change, they simply say they have the right to change times and, by implication, passengers have no rights to know why.
Peter (and anyone else following this saga)
latest update...
I had written to ABTA for them to look at the problem but heard nothing for 2 weeks so emailed them asking them to confirm that they had received the letter. No reply to the email other than an automated acknowledgement that they had received the email.
Today, slightly delayed by the post strike, I have received ABTAs response dated the day I sent the email (what a coincedence!).
It says that MyTravel do not appear to have breached the ABTA Code of Conduct - there is no evidence that they have actually asked MyTravel any questions which may explain the use of do not appear. You would have thought that if ABTA had examined the case properly they would be able to say with some certainty whether their own code of conduct had been breached!
It goes on to refer me to the brochure (something which MyTravel have also done) even though I clearly stated that the flight had been booked on the internet - does this mean you must get a copy of the brochure before using the website?
It then says that if I wish to pursue the matter I should seek advice from Trading Standards - even though I had enclosed a copy of the letter from Cheshire Trading Standards listing all the reasons they said entitled me to my money back!
It seems that they have not even read the copies of the correspondence attached to the complaint and have sent a short non-commital reply when they got the email asking what was happening.
It ends with the line I trust the above clarifies the position of ABTA - that much is certainly true, reading their website I got an impression that their procedure was intended just as a way of slowing down complaints and trying to make people give up and this letter backs that up.
latest update...
I had written to ABTA for them to look at the problem but heard nothing for 2 weeks so emailed them asking them to confirm that they had received the letter. No reply to the email other than an automated acknowledgement that they had received the email.
Today, slightly delayed by the post strike, I have received ABTAs response dated the day I sent the email (what a coincedence!).
It says that MyTravel do not appear to have breached the ABTA Code of Conduct - there is no evidence that they have actually asked MyTravel any questions which may explain the use of do not appear. You would have thought that if ABTA had examined the case properly they would be able to say with some certainty whether their own code of conduct had been breached!
It goes on to refer me to the brochure (something which MyTravel have also done) even though I clearly stated that the flight had been booked on the internet - does this mean you must get a copy of the brochure before using the website?
It then says that if I wish to pursue the matter I should seek advice from Trading Standards - even though I had enclosed a copy of the letter from Cheshire Trading Standards listing all the reasons they said entitled me to my money back!
It seems that they have not even read the copies of the correspondence attached to the complaint and have sent a short non-commital reply when they got the email asking what was happening.
It ends with the line I trust the above clarifies the position of ABTA - that much is certainly true, reading their website I got an impression that their procedure was intended just as a way of slowing down complaints and trying to make people give up and this letter backs that up.
I would never use ABTA because they are trade assocition there mainly for the travel agents and tour ops. Since they stopped covering if a travel goes bust that anybody who booked with the agent would get their money I don't really see what use they are to the general public. They are there to represent the interest of travel agents and tour ops.
I would go the small claims court route. You are bound to more joy there instead of with ABTA, and if win a better pay out than ABTA would come to. ABTA protection on what tours can do before breaking ABTA code of conduct has been watered down. No doubt at the tour ops request.
If you paid by credit card you raise a complaint with your credit card company.
I would go the small claims court route. You are bound to more joy there instead of with ABTA, and if win a better pay out than ABTA would come to. ABTA protection on what tours can do before breaking ABTA code of conduct has been watered down. No doubt at the tour ops request.
If you paid by credit card you raise a complaint with your credit card company.
It was paid for by Debit card so that route is out.
I have got the forms from the Small Claims Court and am studying them, the new option of registering online looks interesting.
I agree with what you say about ABTA, it was Ros Fernihough's PA who suggested going to them. At least I can show the court I have made reasonable efforts to resolve it before going to them.
I have got the forms from the Small Claims Court and am studying them, the new option of registering online looks interesting.
I agree with what you say about ABTA, it was Ros Fernihough's PA who suggested going to them. At least I can show the court I have made reasonable efforts to resolve it before going to them.
It's a little known (but should be better known) fact that VISA DEBIT CARDS can offer the same protection as credit cards. You just might have problems getting your bank to accept the fact.
Here's a BBC Article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/4260806.stm
Here's a BBC Article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/4260806.stm
Travelling sam
Thanks for that info, I have kept a copy for future reference. We have a visa debit card, I wounder what happened to the delta part of it.
Steve you can try this approach on a visa bebit card, what do you have to lose, nothing.
Thanks for that info, I have kept a copy for future reference. We have a visa debit card, I wounder what happened to the delta part of it.
Steve you can try this approach on a visa bebit card, what do you have to lose, nothing.
I'm just back from the Nationwide. Unfortunately the claim has to be lodged within 75 days of the transaction and MyTravel didn't inform me of the change until they issued the ticket 2 weeks before departure - which was over 100 days after the transaction.
Still, a really useful piece of information for future use. For the benefit of others, this tip applies to Visa Debit cards - Maestro don't apear to offer the same protection.
Still, a really useful piece of information for future use. For the benefit of others, this tip applies to Visa Debit cards - Maestro don't apear to offer the same protection.
I think you have one course now the small claims court. I would pressure the nationwide because the services were delivered after the 75 days. I would think you could claim the 75 days should start when the services are delivered. That will offer no protection for any services or goods will not be received 75 days.
Although I provided the details about Debit Cards, it was done without reading the above (and it is something people should know for the future!).
However, I would never go down this path for a case like this, or for a credit car - it's a complete waste of time and effort as
a) you authorised the card payment
b) Mytravel are providing the service you paid for
Nothing else is important to the credit card company. You're flight is 4 hours early? Doesn't matter. You're being dumped at Manchester Airport for 4 hours? No matter, not important. Don't take issue with these statements, if you have an issue go start a war on credit card companies, it's a different issue.
So - ABTA. Wouldn't go down that path as the airline can change the schedule for minor changes if they have to. I believe to them all other issues are irrelevant, as they are complying to the law.
Trading Standards - Do yours have teeth? If so go for it.
Small Claims - Typically you will win as they will not wish to fight it. I do not think (for reasons that FWH has mentioned) if they do fight it that you will necessarily win.
I'm not sure:
a) What you want - is it just a refund of your flights so you can book other better timed lights? Have you travelled already?
b) If there is a time / effort / cost factor involved in your decision making, or have you reached a point where you want to win your argument at all costs?
I can't help thinking that if I was in your shoes, i'd have booked the Manchester Airport Travelodge to get a couple of hours kip.
However, I would never go down this path for a case like this, or for a credit car - it's a complete waste of time and effort as
a) you authorised the card payment
b) Mytravel are providing the service you paid for
Nothing else is important to the credit card company. You're flight is 4 hours early? Doesn't matter. You're being dumped at Manchester Airport for 4 hours? No matter, not important. Don't take issue with these statements, if you have an issue go start a war on credit card companies, it's a different issue.
So - ABTA. Wouldn't go down that path as the airline can change the schedule for minor changes if they have to. I believe to them all other issues are irrelevant, as they are complying to the law.
Trading Standards - Do yours have teeth? If so go for it.
Small Claims - Typically you will win as they will not wish to fight it. I do not think (for reasons that FWH has mentioned) if they do fight it that you will necessarily win.
I'm not sure:
a) What you want - is it just a refund of your flights so you can book other better timed lights? Have you travelled already?
b) If there is a time / effort / cost factor involved in your decision making, or have you reached a point where you want to win your argument at all costs?
I can't help thinking that if I was in your shoes, i'd have booked the Manchester Airport Travelodge to get a couple of hours kip.
Sam
As I said in the original post, they didn't just change the flight time.
The problem is that they advertised a flight from an airport that would not be open.
The airport management has written to me confirming that they had advised airlines that they would not be open at those hours before Mytravel took my money.
So MyTravel took my money for something that someone at MyTravel knew they couldn't deliver and then wouldn't give it back when they had to admit it.
So why should I have to be a penny out of pocket because of these cowboys? It seems that hanging on to money from people forced to cancel is part of MyTravels business plan, evidence of which is the way they lay out the invoice to pretend that you haven't paid any taxes - this way they can use a loophole and not refund money they collect for the government and which the government says you can have back if you don't fly.
As I said in the original post, they didn't just change the flight time.
The problem is that they advertised a flight from an airport that would not be open.
The airport management has written to me confirming that they had advised airlines that they would not be open at those hours before Mytravel took my money.
So MyTravel took my money for something that someone at MyTravel knew they couldn't deliver and then wouldn't give it back when they had to admit it.
So why should I have to be a penny out of pocket because of these cowboys? It seems that hanging on to money from people forced to cancel is part of MyTravels business plan, evidence of which is the way they lay out the invoice to pretend that you haven't paid any taxes - this way they can use a loophole and not refund money they collect for the government and which the government says you can have back if you don't fly.
You are right in the fact that they sold you a flight that they could not honour, according to the information you hold. They are right in the fact that they can move your flight by up to 12 hours without compensation, irrespective of your circumstances and inconvenience it may cause.
It is up to you how far you wish to take your complaint and what recompense you hope to get.
I would personally assume that trading standards must bring the greatest force here as what I think you are saying is that they sold something to you knowing that they would not be able to fulfill their side of the contract.
Good luck and let us know the outcome please
It is up to you how far you wish to take your complaint and what recompense you hope to get.
I would personally assume that trading standards must bring the greatest force here as what I think you are saying is that they sold something to you knowing that they would not be able to fulfill their side of the contract.
Good luck and let us know the outcome please
Well summarised samr
Samr
You've understood the problem correctly - it's the bit about them knowing at the time of booking that is important.
Actually Trading Standards pointed out that the 12 hour rule in the T&Cs can be challenged under the "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regs 1999" if it is being used to cover up mistakes rather than deal with problems outside MyTravels reasonable control. Unfortunately they are understaffed (even more now the person I was dealing with has left!) and can't really mount a proper investigation for just my benefit so have said Small Claims Court is next best option.
Steve
You've understood the problem correctly - it's the bit about them knowing at the time of booking that is important.
Actually Trading Standards pointed out that the 12 hour rule in the T&Cs can be challenged under the "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regs 1999" if it is being used to cover up mistakes rather than deal with problems outside MyTravels reasonable control. Unfortunately they are understaffed (even more now the person I was dealing with has left!) and can't really mount a proper investigation for just my benefit so have said Small Claims Court is next best option.
Steve
Steve,
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - but i'm 100% on your side, and i'm certainly not belittling your case.
There are a number of things that don't add up from their side, and they need to explain the flight issues. And it will cost you more money, or hassle, and maybe it will require brinkmanship on your behalf to get them to act.
Can you tell us when you travel & ultimately, what you hope to achieve. Is it a refund on your holiday? Some kind of compensation? I think it's important to have that kind of focus when you deal with them.
If we know what you want, it would help us establish a way of getting it.
However, despite the clauses you have found, and the information you have, I do worry that the T&C cover them - thus the whole experience could be timely, costly and bare no fruit.
Quite often claims in the the courts win because it is cheaper for them to not defend themselves. But again, this depends on what you are hoping to achieve?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - but i'm 100% on your side, and i'm certainly not belittling your case.
There are a number of things that don't add up from their side, and they need to explain the flight issues. And it will cost you more money, or hassle, and maybe it will require brinkmanship on your behalf to get them to act.
Can you tell us when you travel & ultimately, what you hope to achieve. Is it a refund on your holiday? Some kind of compensation? I think it's important to have that kind of focus when you deal with them.
If we know what you want, it would help us establish a way of getting it.
However, despite the clauses you have found, and the information you have, I do worry that the T&C cover them - thus the whole experience could be timely, costly and bare no fruit.
Quite often claims in the the courts win because it is cheaper for them to not defend themselves. But again, this depends on what you are hoping to achieve?
Sam
First thngs, this wasn't a MyTravel holiday, it was a flight only booking from their flight only website. The rest of the holiday was seperate (inlcuding the outward flight to Lisbon). When they belatedly announced that they had retimed the flight I was annoyed but assumed that it was something like air traffic control moving flights to avoid conflicts, which is the sort of thing you assume the T&C about moving flights is about. It was only when I found out about the airport opening times (which are caused by them only employing enough firemen to cover two shifts) and the fact that this was published to the airlines that I contacted Consumer Direct (the OfT's telephone advice service). They said if I could find a better way home I should cancel the MyTravel flight and ask for the money back using the Supply of Goods and Services Act requirement that they should use reasonable care and skill (not reading the airport operating book demonstrates a lack of that).
I want back the money I gave them for the flight they had no chance of operating, Cheshire Trading Standards say that I should also ask for the additional cost of the Monarch flight I used to get home (at the time MyTravel persuaded me to book their flight I could have got the Monarch flight cheaper than I eventually paid). MyTravel try to cloud the issue saying I'm not entitled for compensation for things like loss of enjoyment (even though I've never asked for any) and completely ignore all the actual points that I and Trading Standards raised.
MyTravel seem to have a policy of treating their customers and the laws of this country with contempt and that is why I'm not going to let it drop.
First thngs, this wasn't a MyTravel holiday, it was a flight only booking from their flight only website. The rest of the holiday was seperate (inlcuding the outward flight to Lisbon). When they belatedly announced that they had retimed the flight I was annoyed but assumed that it was something like air traffic control moving flights to avoid conflicts, which is the sort of thing you assume the T&C about moving flights is about. It was only when I found out about the airport opening times (which are caused by them only employing enough firemen to cover two shifts) and the fact that this was published to the airlines that I contacted Consumer Direct (the OfT's telephone advice service). They said if I could find a better way home I should cancel the MyTravel flight and ask for the money back using the Supply of Goods and Services Act requirement that they should use reasonable care and skill (not reading the airport operating book demonstrates a lack of that).
I want back the money I gave them for the flight they had no chance of operating, Cheshire Trading Standards say that I should also ask for the additional cost of the Monarch flight I used to get home (at the time MyTravel persuaded me to book their flight I could have got the Monarch flight cheaper than I eventually paid). MyTravel try to cloud the issue saying I'm not entitled for compensation for things like loss of enjoyment (even though I've never asked for any) and completely ignore all the actual points that I and Trading Standards raised.
MyTravel seem to have a policy of treating their customers and the laws of this country with contempt and that is why I'm not going to let it drop.
We booked on 1st Feb to fly to Goa on the 20th December for 3 weeks with Airtours on a mytravel flight. We booked early to make sure we could get Premiair Gold seats. We booked for my son and girlfriend to join us for the last 2 weeks traveling home together again booking Premiair gold seats.
On Friday, over eight and a half months after booking we received a letter to say that due to overbooking myself and my husband no longer had Premiair seats and the times of the flight was changed both ways flying back at 7.00 in the morning. My travel agent contacted mytravel stating that as we had booked so early how could we possibly be now told that their is an overbooking situation.
At this late stage I trawled the internet and we couldn't even find alternative flights let alone Premium seats. We have had to move on to a Monarch flight travelling the day after to make sure we are all together traveling back at an additional charge of £364 - Having traveled Monarch before I am not looking forward to it. We have to go via Bahrain. My travel rep did manage to get us Premium seats - don't know how she but we are very grateful.
I am writing to Airtours but does anyone have any tips on to where I stand legally?
On Friday, over eight and a half months after booking we received a letter to say that due to overbooking myself and my husband no longer had Premiair seats and the times of the flight was changed both ways flying back at 7.00 in the morning. My travel agent contacted mytravel stating that as we had booked so early how could we possibly be now told that their is an overbooking situation.
At this late stage I trawled the internet and we couldn't even find alternative flights let alone Premium seats. We have had to move on to a Monarch flight travelling the day after to make sure we are all together traveling back at an additional charge of £364 - Having traveled Monarch before I am not looking forward to it. We have to go via Bahrain. My travel rep did manage to get us Premium seats - don't know how she but we are very grateful.
I am writing to Airtours but does anyone have any tips on to where I stand legally?
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