cmsammy,

There is absolutely no reason what so ever to be rude about things, especially if the answer is not quite what you want to hear.

Members here on HT make the time and effort to reply to posts offerering advice which the audience can either take on board or dismiss but we will not tolerate personal attacks against other members.

Thank you.

MarkJ HT Mod

Sorry fwh but your responses are completely unhelpful and you have said the same thing 3 times now but have not listened to the answer. In fact could you please not post any more replies cos you're just winding me up !

As a long-standing member of this community I would say that fwh is one of the most experienced posters on this site and has been invaluable to many members seeking advice. Whilst I appreciate that you are feeling very aggrieved with HA and your particular situation, it is sometimes necessary to listen to advice, which you asked for in your original post. Your comment is both insensitive and unhelpful.

You may not agree with the advice given, and decide not to make use of it, which is your right, but other people could find fwh's comments helpful and my experiences of fwh's posts are that they are always practical and reasoned with no intention of winding anyone up.

If you do find a practical method of resolving your situation, it would be good to hear from you as to the outcome and how you managed it, but I would have thought that all and any advice might be useful to you in moving forward with your situation with Holiday Autos.

It's not that I didn't like the replys I was getting it is simply that the contract with the Spanish hire company is not the issue, and having read fwh say for the 3rd time that it was I got a bit peeved, (losing over £600 quid can do that to a person !). Holiday Autos would have used this as their reason for not paying had it been the case, it's not and they haven't. We are simply arguing over their Ts & Cs which I claim are misleading. Hence my original question, is there anyone on this forum with some form of legal training who could read them and tell me if I have a case against them. If theft is not covered, why not put it in the list of Exclusions, Answer - because they don't want it known !!

Holiday Autos booking conditions state.

Quote:
you will be required to sign a rental contract with the rental company which supplies the vehicle. You should satisfy yourself that you understand (and agree) to its terms and conditions, as you will be subject to, and must comply with these terms,

They are quite specific on this point and I think that is why they are rejecting your claim. When you signed the hire contract then you agreed to the terms stated in that document.

I would refer you to the post I made shown above. They state quite clearly that you are subject to the terms and conditions in the hire agreement. Might not be what you want but the wording of it gets them out from under.

I personally have specialist knowledge of the hire industry and draw on that when I answer a question that relates to it. Many of the members of HT have specialist or professional knowledge but as far as giving you legal advice none of them are able to do so - they can only express an opinion. If you want legal advice then you need to consult a solicitor or possible speak with Trading Standards

fwh

I wish they would say that. Three times they have contacted me and three times they have said they have to refer this to their manager. Then I get a reply, "Sorry you're not covered, we hope this resolves your query". NO IT B****y doesn't !!!!

This therefore means that the additional cover they offer is worthless, and their Ts & Cs are a waste of paper, (or webspace), so I say again to all potential HA customers BEWARE !

I was just about to write to HA to ask for an explanation and this was in my mailbox,

"Your car rental with Holiday Autos includes unlimited mileage, collision damage waiver and theft waiver. The theft waiver covers you if the vehicle should be stolen or damaged during an attempted theft whilst the vehicle is on hire. You are covered for the full value of the vehicle with the exception of the excess which is advised at the time of booking on the website or over the phone.

Having looked over the terms and conditions, it clearly states that you will be liable for the excess if the vehicle should be stolen. The Theft Waiver and optional Damage Waiver terms are differentiated on our website terms and conditions to show that they are separate products and the optional Damage Waivers do not provide cover in the event of theft."

Back to square 1, it is the HA Ts & Cs after all, not the Spanish contract.

Contact Trading Standards and explain to them you consider that the T&Cs are either unfair or misleading. They will investigate and should they consider that they are wrong then they will take action and probably assist you.

fwh

Will do, I'll let you know what they say, could be a while tho !

FWH is indeed a much respected member here on HT and certainly a member I would be listening to if I needed advice on a legal matter .

Coming back to cmsammy's complaint and as a user of holiday autos ,the way I am reading it is not that he/she has issue with the fact that you are bound by the terms and conditions of the rental company in spain/france or wherever but more that we are being sold extra protection , the damage ACCESS waiver product that you have the choice of taking and paying as an addition direct with holiday Autos and believing as I also have done that this will enable you to claim back any access paid to the hire company .

If we look back on this link http://www.holidayautos.co.uk/cgi-bin/liveweb.sh/webpage.w?table=&=consumer&aff=&ctryref=GBR&currcode=&lang=EN&wfnGffgjNZadgbUQ=&pageid=1222#theft_waiver and scroll down to damage access waiver products it states even if you purchase the standard damage access waiver you are covered for damage and theft access waiver but with the exclusions listed .

Where the keys are lost, damaged or stolen, you will be liable for the reasonable costs of obtaining replacement keys which will be in addition to any excess deposit paid.
Further costs exceeding the excess will apply if the loss, damage or theft of the keys is directly related to the theft of the vehicle. These costs will be defined by the supplier.

Do you think these would fit your particular case cmsammy?

so I agree it is misleading but then I think FWH agrees with that too and why he has spent a lot of time on training courses in an attempt to understand them

I am in no way expert in the slightest on hire car agreements but probably like you attempting to understand now before I part with extra money next time for a product that is seemingly useless.

lyn

Sorry looks like we may have moved on whilst I've been busy typing . But in that email there is no mention that you purchased the ACCESS waiver direct with HA. I thought you had

FWH knows about the car industry from working in it and that is invaluable advice, the law is a much more complicated matter aand only professional advice should be relied on, in any legal matter.

In relation to this matter you are fighting a loosing battle without professional help. If their terms and conditions are unfair then legally a lawyer can deal with this for you but it is alot more complicated than that. This is a matter where professional qualified advice is needed I feel as this company will have covered their back.

OK OK I get the message, lay off fwh !!!

Further costs exceeding the excess will apply if the loss, damage or theft of the keys is directly related to the theft of the vehicle. These costs will be defined by the supplier

Lyn, I did purchase the Standard Damage Excess Waiver and that extract that you posted suggests I'm lucky not to have had to pay more, the keys were stolen and then used to steal the car. Does that mean I should be grateful it was ONLY 660 euros !!

Clive (he)

Ok folks keep it friendly please or else the topic will be locked - last warning.

Thank you.

MarkJ HT Mod

Hi Clive

Just a suggestion. Have you checked your travel insurance to see whether you're covered for this theft. Some of our travel insurances have covered us for excess on hired vehicles.

Firstly to MarkJ, I was being friendly but I guess that didn't come across too well in the written word, warning noted ! I should have adopted text speak and added "lol" on the end, LOL

Gerib, you're not the first to suggest that, I will dig it out and have a look.

Any update on this one?? Just been reading through the post and it's alarmed me somewhat as we have used Holiday Autos for the last 3 years with the purchase of their Total Damage Excess Waiver on the same understanding that the OP had in that any excess would be paid upfront and then claimed back from HA.

Have just re-read their T&Cs and looking at their damage excess waiver products it clearly states under 'Inclusions' - 'Theft Waiver excess liability'. There's a link with info to click on that takes you to a paragraph explaining what is meant by Theft Waiver Excess. Surely if your liability for the excess is listed as an inclusion of the excess waiver policy then you should be covered?

This is the link http://www.holidayautos.co.uk/cgi-bin/liveweb.sh/webpage.w?table=&=consumer&aff=&ctryref=GBR&currcode=&lang=EN&wfnGffgjNZadgbUQ=&pageid=1222#cdw

Perhaps someone else can take a look and see what they think.

I've already booked next years car through them and paid extra for the cover, so would hope that the OP ended up with a positive result on this.

Hi nicTW,

The update is that Trading Standards are taking an interest, the initial feedback is that they agree the Ts & Cs are confusing. It is being passed through the departments and I believe they will be contacting Holiday Autos.

One thing I can say with certainty, if your car is stolen abroad, HA will not refund the excess. Re-read the link to the very badly named "Theft Waiver Excess", it doesn't say you will get the excess back, (you may need to read it a few times !!).

Clive

I agree the T&Cs are confusing. I am supposed to understand vehicle hire documents but confess even I am not sure what they are on about.

I do welcome the fact that Trading Standards are looking at this. In my opinion you should simply book the vehicle with them and sort out your insurance requirements when you get there. It would appear (in my opinion anyway) that you are paying twice for the cover, and in the case of Holiday Autos, based on what has been said they are not honouring their part of it. I will spend some time reading them to see if I can make sense of them.

I am aware that some members of HT have taken out insurance in the UK giving cover they can understand and recommended it here on HT. Perhaps someone might post some details.

From a personal viewpoint when I hire I always make it clear that I want cover that ensures I will not have to pay anything should the unforseen happens. In every case the hire company have understood what I am asking for.

fwh

These are my terms with Auto Reisen booked through H.R. for one week from 22-12-2009


Terms and conditions of the reservation
* Our rates include:
- Taxes (IGIC or IVA) included.
- Unlimited mileage.
- Free additional driver.
- Free airport service.
- Free cancellation or modification of the reservation.
- Insurances.
- Collision Damage Waiver (SUPER CDW with no excess).
- Theft protection (TP).
- Personal Accident Insurance (PAI)
- Third party coverage.

* Once the client has made the reservation through the Internet, he/she will receive the confirmation or refusal of the request at the e-mail address provided.

* The vehicle will be delivered in any one of our offices located in the airports or tourist sites.

* The client must return the vehicle with the same amount of fuel as when it was picked up.

* The driver must be in possession of the driver's licence to use the vehicle.

* The driver's license must be valid in Europe and must have been issued at least 3 years prior.

* You must be 25 years of age or more to rent a car.

* Payment will be made by credit card in our offices at the time of withdrawing the vehicle.

* No monetary operations will be carried out through the Internet.

* The personal data provided through the Internet pages will be handled as confidential and will not be transferred to third parties.

* The insurance does not cover the following cases:
- Damages to the rims, tyres and underside of the car.
- Fines, loss or damage of keys, wrong refuelling.
- Accidents related to reckless driving, driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs.

* The baby car seats and child boosters are offered free of charge with the reservations made on the Internet. The luggage racks have a fee of 2 €/day.