Disregarding laws around unauthorised absence, I personally wouldn't take my kids out if they were year 8+ at secondary school. Every lesson is absolutely vital in the run up to GCSEs and one missed lesson can seriously compromise grades.

Primary school, I wouldn't mind so much. It's mostly colouring in and singing songs, I don't feel a week off is a big compromise on them being able to spell, for example. College/sixth form level attendance is also vital, if not more vital than GCSE run up.

Primary school, I wouldn't mind so much. It's mostly colouring in and singing songs

This does play a part in the early years education but don't forget Primary school goes to age 11 and I don't think any decent teacher would spend most of their days encouraging lots of colouring in and singing songs.

Haha, my daughter has just started year 5 at primary school and she probably wishes it WAS all colouring in and singing songs !!!

English law (don't know about the rest of UK, sorry) gives the local education authority the right to set their own local policies and issue fixed penalty notices to parents who breach it. Don't ask me what will happen if schools are allowed to break away from the LEA!

I've had my say on previous threads on the rights and wrongs of taking kids out of school during term-time and I'm not going comment on that here. It's a topic that many people seem to have strong and fixed views on with the associated tendency to engage in rants and few people ever seem to change their mind as a result of the 'discussion'.

But Steve raises an interesting point because such policy developments could mean it gets a lot worse for those who want to take kids out of school during term-time. The proposed 'free schools' for example, will have a lot more autonomy than those that remain under the LEAs control but this could result in them hardening rather than loosening the rules. Just like the 'academies' before them, there will be a lot of pressure on them to demonstrate that they are improving standards etc in return for the added 'no strings' financial investment and the way the city academies and a good many faith schools have done this is to be very ruthless with finding ways of getting kids off the roll who, for whatever reason, bring their position in the league tables down - or even never let them get on it in the first place. So parents with a record of taking kids out of school and on holiday as unauthorised absences could find it gets increasingly difficult to get their kids into those schools that are well placed in the league tables and get a reputation for achieving good results. And unlike with the existing regulations covering school allocations etc there's a good chance that there will be no realistic prospect of appealing such a decision once a school and its admissions policy is no longer monitored/regulated by the LEA.

Just calling your kids in 'sick' won't necessarily be a protection against this either - I know of faith schools who've taken the line that parents who appear to take a relaxed view of what constitutes being too sick to attend school is evidence of the parents not working within the school ethos and being unco-operative. And once they've decided that you're 'not working with them' they can make life very uncomfortable for the parents concerned. they have no need to keep you happy when they've got long waiting lists of families happy to take your place. I don't know whether any school ever did actually do it but I did hear it being made as serious suggestion that schools wanting to do something about this should consider referring those families with kids who had a consistently higher than average number of days off sick, without evidence of a longterm or recurring condition, to Social Services on the ostensibly unimpeachable grounds that they were concerned about the children's overall health and wellbeing if they were so regularly and frequently falling ill. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about whether Michael Gove's plans to try and remove as many schools as possible from LEA control are a good or bad thing but parents who cast the LEA as the baddy in the 'holidays during term-time' debate might find that they have nothing on what schools are capaple off once outside of LEA control.

I would very much doubt that a defence based on the HRA and 'the right to a family life' is going to hold water in the courts either. A 'right to a family life' is not the same as 'the right to take a holiday abroad at a cheaper price than the TOs are prepared to let me have during the school holidays'. Yes, holidays are an important part of family life but there are holidays and holidays. My cousin, a recently retired headteacher of a church primary school had a wonderful strategy for responding to those parents who said that going on holiday during term-time was the only way they could afford a family holiday. He'd put on his most concerned face and tell them that he knew of a number of charities who owned caravans on the north Wales coast and rented them at a subsidised rate to ensure that families who couldn't otherwise go on holiday together could do so. He'd then ask whether they'd like him to contact said charities and see if they had any vacancies and that he'd also put in a good word with the parish priest to see if he was willing to pay for it out of parish poor funds because he knew how important holidays were for family life! Each year a minority of families were genuinely delighted and said, yes, please do. But the majority of parents either backed off with a red-face or got angry with him for thinking that they were that poor that they needed to take up such an offer. Cue even more concerned face and and an apology for the confusion and that he must have misheard them because he was sure that he had heard them say that they couldn't afford a holiday during the school summer holidays and he'd only wanted to help and ensure that they were able to spend time away together as a family in a different environment.

Of course he got away with this because it was a very popular high performing school and he knew full well (and most of the parents knew that he knew) that a good many of them had paid a premium for their houses in order to ensure that they lived in the catchment area. If he really wanted to rub it in he would mention that if they were struggling with managing their outgoings etc that he could put them in touch with excellent debt counselling agencies too. I'm not defending his actions but simply using it as an example of how one should never underestimate just how low a popular, high achieving, oversubscribed school staff will sink to in order to maintain their position in the league tables - especially once the restraining hand of the LEA that has a responsiblity to provide a state schooling for all those need it, is removed.

SM

hi Sephs.....I was worried about taking my youngest out for holidays last year...as he was doing a BTEC in outdoor persuits and Gcse PE....the BTEC its self was 4 GCSE'S....If he had missed a camping trip ect it would have been a problem...as it was he was off ill for a week on antibiotics which couldnt be avoided....but he has gained a merit in his BTEC....so 4 GCSE's level B.....

You may not live in an area where they do this, or as youve just gone back to the 6th form might be too old to have been given the option...as its something new...but in my lads school they dont take all thier GCSE's together in the last year now...they split them over the last 2 years....my sons year were the first ones to get this option in his school....they take 2 main options plus the core subjects in the first year...then another 2 main options and the core subjects in the second year...so last year he took the BTEC in outdoor persuits and PE as his options....this year he is doing technology and business studies...........because of what he wants to do in the future last years options were the important ones for him......

I had promised him a special trip with a mate for his 16th birthay instead of a party....and so he will miss 4 days of school in october....and Im not as worried doing it this year...though I work in completely different field now I do have A level accounts and bussiness studies....also did the job for years...and so will be able to get him back up to speed if he does miss something...and the course he wants to do in college which is his next step to the careers he is aiming for is asking for 5c's ...and he already has 4b's......so he only needs to get 1 more Gcse at c grade this year to do what he wants....and accounts and business studies will be 2 with my help ...and he is good at technology and likes doing the classes ....so 3c's not going to be too hard for him to get...

ps.....and he will do well....thats if he wants to go Faleraki for his 18th ...tweetie

Right lets put this one to bed. This rule for obvious reasons is never advertised due to the fact some selfish parents will abuse it.
Your childs school is given a recomended attendance score by ofsted, lets say 95%. If you child / children have 96% plus attendance over the year or previous year it is ok. At 95% or under you could get a visit from the education welfare. What they decide then is down to your childs attendance/ punctuality.
Also, an unknown rule, if it is a one off and your child has a 100% attendance for a couple of years running, you can insist the head teacher gives you permission.
Although heads will deny this,and discourage it they wil give it on a once only basis.i.e you can only ever ask for it once regardless of any future excellent attendances.
Also if a pattern emerges, always the last day before/ after a school break etc you could find yourself in serious trouble, authorities will turn a blind eye here and there but those of you who do it regular wil be punished, and in my opinion rightly so.
Remember this folks. Those of you out there that do this taking out of schools regularly will not only ruin it for everyone else but wil eventually be penalised as the authorities are allowed to use previous years attendances against you.

A couple of blase statements here;-

At primary school my kids spent more time drawing fancy borders around their "busy work" than actually learning anything

It's mostly colouring in and singing songs

If this is all my kids did and learnt in primary school, they certainly wouldn't be where they are today. I certainly wouldn't have been capable of supplying them with all the educational and social needs required by entry into Secondary school. It's a fact that young babies and children learn and develop through play. Entering school at 3 1/2 you cannot expect a child to sit down and read and write all day. Colouring helps develop fine motor skills needed for formal writing in the future. Singing songs teaches memory skills, musical rhythm ec, and if all kids do is draw borders for 6 years then they're in the wrong school.

Mostly singing songs and colouring in. Mostly being the operative word in my sentence. I speak from my own experience of primary school as it wasn't actually that long ago I was there. I did learn a lot. It's not a bad thing for children to learn through music and art work. Of course primary school is important and children do learn a lot during their time there, but what I mean is that it's not such a big deal to take a child out of year 2 in the middle of term, than it is to take your 16-year-old away for a fortnight in the June before GCSE examinations.

shirley h wrote:

Primary school, I wouldn't mind so much. It's mostly colouring in and singing songs

This does play a part in the early years education but don't forget Primary school goes to age 11 and I don't think any decent teacher would spend most of their days encouraging lots of colouring in and singing songs.

I haven't forgotten and do know it goes up to age 11, I was there myself about 6 years ago. I don't think it's a case of being a decent teacher, not in the slightest. Some of the jingles I was taught (by a fantastic teacher) to remember certain things in maths still really help me to this day.

Tweetie, I did my GCSE's in 2009, though I did one in performing arts in 2006. All of my exams were within days of each other (often 2 or 3 in one day) and revision had to be packed into a massive schedule in the weeks running up to the fortnight of exams. I was going through a bad patch at the time anyway, but for me to have gone away in the run up to my exams would have been disastrous.
Best of luck to your son, he sounds like he's doing you proud already.

As someone who now lives in an area where people come on holiday & have dealt with them in the past I would just like to point out a very often voiced opinion from 'the others'. The others being those holidaying without children, either because they don't have them, or becuse they are older & their children are now grown up. A very common moan I heard, particularly in May, June & September (strangely enough rarely October) was about families with children, many people had specifically chosen those months to not be surrounded by them, a frequent comment being "I've done years of family holidays with my own children during school holidays, I don't come in term time to be surrounded by other peoples' kids". I suppose it's just the same as taking a family holiday & your children moaning that 'it's all old people here!'
This isn't to start any arguments, just an observation from someone who is here all season every year & something else to consider for the kids! There are definitely 'seasons' within the summer season as to the type of people arriving & when, so I can see that many do choose outside school holidays on purpose.

A very common moan I heard, particularly in May, June & September (strangely enough rarely October)

Probably not that strange! Those people who want to avoid other people's kids probably make sure that they avoid the half term holidays which can be staggered throughout October depending on the part of the country the school is in. I would assume that they would realise that there's a good chance you'll encounter families holidaying in October and that if they want to avoid kids that much will choose to avoid going away at that time of year to those resorts etc that are popular with families - or else will understand that they can hardly complain if they do and the pool is full of noisy kids.

SM

When my children are old enough not to come on holiday with us, I will definitely be avoiding the school holidays! Not to avoid children but to get away from the inflated prices! Whenever I see couples in the school holidays without children I always think one of them must work in a school.

At the end of the day it is the parents decision, the age of the child has a lot of bearing. Obviously you wouldnt take your child out of school while in their last year of school but as for primary school I cant see the harm.

Outcome
The head said that she cannot give authorisation officially without it being special circumstance i.e death in family etc. So it will be marked down as unauthorised leave but has no specific objection to him going. I thanked her sincerely and ensured any work missed will be dealt with on his return. Good result I'd say.

Has been interesting reading the various opinions - it does seem there are more for than against for primary school aged children and perhaps less so for secondary school aged children.

We used to be able to get a good deal in October but it seems the travel companies have cottoned on to October in recent years realising the half term falls in different places for different regions of the UK. The private school in my area used to break up a week before state school so folk could get really good discounts - but thats all gone now.

I am a secondary teacher who normally has no problem with kids missing school for a holiday. However we have just started Btec in my subject in year 10. We are only 1 week in but straight away it is clear that this type of course is extremely dependent on good attendance. A kid with 80% attendance may as well not bother as it will be virtually impossible for them to keep up. Already in my yr 10 class I have 2 kids who have not yet returned to school as they are on holiday. By the time they return they will be 8 lessons behind and so will have almost certainly failed their first assignment (out of 5). At least with the traditional GCSE as long as you had a revision guide and were there for the exam you had a chance!

hi hi de hi.....that was my thinking last year as my son was doing a BTEC in outdoor persuits...so we went in the school holidays...yes it can be expensive but its not as costly as the price paid for failing something that is important for the rest of your childs life....I was a bit miffed though as Id gone in school holidays, and my normally very healthy child had to have time off as he was ill....luckily it was at a time that when nothing he couldnt catch up on was going on...

This year I am taking him out of school for 4 days middle of oct....but as I explained in my long post I am not as worried this year ....he does his work experience the week after we come back ....that was an important time and the bit I cant help him with....I think as a parent you have to be willing and able to help your child either get ahead of or catch up with what they have missed....and while they are away keep thier education going....we used to have great fun going on night time bug hunts in various parts of spain....and one of the high lights of one holiday was tracking down a mole cricket...that triggered them into going on the net when they got home and finding out more about them.....nature study hands on....as I have always worked full time and ran a home I have had to make a real effort to find quality time with my children....I saw the holidays as the time I could enjoy my childrens company and spend the time to watch them grow...have fun and discover things together....I felt they gained more from thier holiday with me than they had missed in school and never felt guilty about doing it...tweetie

Whenever I see couples in the school holidays without children I always think one of them must work in a school.

You're not wrong there - not that I don't like children - but working with them all year and having four grandchildren of my own, I would avoid school holidays like the plague.

I really think you have to use your initiative to some extent .IMHO I don't really think much harm is done taking your children out of school in the early years of primary school . I would even question the later years . Secondary school really gets a lot harder but I did regularly take them out for the week after may half term (giving us our 2 week main holiday) in years 7-9 . I always made a point of knowing exactly when the school did various trips, yearly assesment exams etc and found this sort of thing follwed the same pattern & dates each year.

Now having gone through GCSE & 6th form years I even find taking them on holiday during the holidays has an adverse effect particularly between christmas & May half term . Mock exams & retakes are usually before and after christmas .Easter holidays there are always extra revision classes and May Half term is sandwiched inbetween GCSE/A level exams. Many oral exams are taken at parculiar times too and that as tweetie says is before we have even started with BTECs etc. The move over to many GCSE exams now being taken in moduals will also come in play from this term . My youngest son has Just started in year 10 and he has his first history modular exam in 8 weeks time . The same will apply to other subjects .

when we go away at Easter for 1 out of the two weeks I always say to my son "you must get on with your revision at soon as you get back" .He is the more focused of my lads and even he struggles after being on holiday for a week . Unfortunately as we all know from our own experience it's not easy to get yourself motivated again quickly when you have just got back from holiday . As much as I hate to admit it they do loose focus at such an important time .

I deffo agree with the impact that Easter has Lyn - and I didn't even take her out during term time.

It was one of the official two weeks of the school holidays prior to the GCSE's in the May/June. We lugged tons of 'revison' stuff with us to Sharm, but it is just so hard to get motivated. She was far keener on doing her PADI.

It's so hard to work out the impact as well, one Uni (Nottingham I think?) that she is interested in insists on grade A's in English Lit and Lang at GCSE as well as whatever they stipulate for A Level.

You end up thinking 'if we had stayed at home would it have been enough to get the A or A* as was only a couple of marks short etc ???'

You could drive yourself nuts worrying about this holidays and the impact of them on kid's Education.

Doe

Outcome
The head said that she cannot give authorisation officially without it being special circumstance i.e death in family etc. So it will be marked down as unauthorised leave but has no specific objection to him going. I thanked her sincerely and ensured any work missed will be dealt with on his return. Good result I'd say.

Two sensible people here. the OP and the head. Not really surprising when you consider that it is a partnership. Whilst the school can work hard to educate your kids you also need to be pro-active. I wonder how many people get their selves in a bind because they don't talk to the school first.

For some years back in the 80s we were unable to take holidays during the school holidays and always talked to the school. They were not happy but at least were understanding of our particular circumstances.

I have never subscribed to the idea that holidays are educational. Kids are on holiday and the last thing they are really interested in doing is studying. There may be some subliminal learning but that is all.

fwh