Does there really need to be quite so much chaos when it snows? How do other more northerly airports cope eg Moscow.( or perhaps they don't?)
Has Heathrow got everything in place it can have? Or do they not invest as its not worth it? My OH was lucky today. He flew into Heathrow on time and his next flight is on schedule( so far). However, it took an hour and fifteen minutes for them to be able to disembark. No doubt some of those will have missed their connections now and there will be even more people to rebook. This is a BA flight by the way. Surely getting those aeroplanes turned round quickly is a priority?
I don't know about Moscow, but here in Germany over 100 flights were cancelled yesterday at Munich Airport with many people spending the night on the airport.
In Vienna yesterday the airport was closed at mid.day with thousands of passengers stranded.
I think that countries that usually have regular heavy snowfall do normally cope better but there can still be chaotic conditions. I have had a couple of winter flights cancelled from Munich over the past few years and had really bad delays due to Airport staff not being able to keep runways clear but on the whole it isn't such a problem.
In Vienna yesterday the airport was closed at mid.day with thousands of passengers stranded.
I think that countries that usually have regular heavy snowfall do normally cope better but there can still be chaotic conditions. I have had a couple of winter flights cancelled from Munich over the past few years and had really bad delays due to Airport staff not being able to keep runways clear but on the whole it isn't such a problem.
OH was flying home from Hamburg. He had no problems there but not sure how the weather compared to London.
Hamburg hasn't had the heavy snowfall that we have had in the South of Germany, don't know how it compares with London. They did have a strike there yesterday but obviously it didn't affect your OH.
Ive just watched Winterwatch on BBC2 and it featured the winter of 1963 when the sea and rivers froze. 
I cant remember the country coming to a standstill then.
I cant remember the country coming to a standstill then.
Fiona,
The problem with Heathrow is it runs at pretty much full capacity from the minute it opens to the minute it closses. When it snows and runways and taxiways need to be cleared or treated, this reduces the available slots and therefore results in delays and cancellation. There are only so many take-off and landing slots per day and when you're running at 99% runway capacity, there's no slack in the system. By cancelling flights, normally domestic, it gives time to ensure the runway is servicable for the international flights. It's an establish contingency. Although Heathrow is not unique, it is one of the busiest in the world and only has 2 runways to cope with the traffic. That's why the moment it snows, even the day before if it's certain in the forecast or there is an incident at Heathrow, it results in problems. You can invest as much as you like in snow removing equipment, and to be fair they have, £34 million from memory since the problems last year, but runways need to be closed in order to clear them and hence, it reduces the number or aircraft movements that can happen. There's no way around that other than more runways, one of the reasons the 3rd runway is being looked at and is very political at the moment.
Other airports simply have more slack in the system to cope with clearing runways and taxiways, although they do get their fair share of delays too. You also have to consider the economics of having, maintaining and staffing what is specialised equipment for what is only normally a problem a few days per year over here. Places more notherly that have snow 2 or 3 months a year or more, it's economincally viable to have all that equipment as it's needed and used regularly. At places like Heathrow, you need some equipment to cover when it's needed, but to have dozens of machines sat around idle for 99% of the year swallows vasts budgets and doesn't do them any good. While it's not ideal, cost - benefit analysis suggests you have enough machinery and staff to cover if / when it's needed, but not to go overboard. The main problem though, even if you had the machinery, is you need to close a runway to clear it and that's what hurts Heathrow. On a normal day with no issues it's running at full capacity, as soon as you have to close a runway for a time, you immediately have to cancel or divert flights as there simply isn't sufficient time in the day to have them land or depart with the volumes Heathrow has.
I know the saying that it's the wrong type of snow sounds like an excuse, but the snow we get is different to other countries. Ours is generally 'wet' snow and it heavy and difficuly to move. The snow further north is a lot dryer and powdery so it's far easier to shift.
Darren
The problem with Heathrow is it runs at pretty much full capacity from the minute it opens to the minute it closses. When it snows and runways and taxiways need to be cleared or treated, this reduces the available slots and therefore results in delays and cancellation. There are only so many take-off and landing slots per day and when you're running at 99% runway capacity, there's no slack in the system. By cancelling flights, normally domestic, it gives time to ensure the runway is servicable for the international flights. It's an establish contingency. Although Heathrow is not unique, it is one of the busiest in the world and only has 2 runways to cope with the traffic. That's why the moment it snows, even the day before if it's certain in the forecast or there is an incident at Heathrow, it results in problems. You can invest as much as you like in snow removing equipment, and to be fair they have, £34 million from memory since the problems last year, but runways need to be closed in order to clear them and hence, it reduces the number or aircraft movements that can happen. There's no way around that other than more runways, one of the reasons the 3rd runway is being looked at and is very political at the moment.
Other airports simply have more slack in the system to cope with clearing runways and taxiways, although they do get their fair share of delays too. You also have to consider the economics of having, maintaining and staffing what is specialised equipment for what is only normally a problem a few days per year over here. Places more notherly that have snow 2 or 3 months a year or more, it's economincally viable to have all that equipment as it's needed and used regularly. At places like Heathrow, you need some equipment to cover when it's needed, but to have dozens of machines sat around idle for 99% of the year swallows vasts budgets and doesn't do them any good. While it's not ideal, cost - benefit analysis suggests you have enough machinery and staff to cover if / when it's needed, but not to go overboard. The main problem though, even if you had the machinery, is you need to close a runway to clear it and that's what hurts Heathrow. On a normal day with no issues it's running at full capacity, as soon as you have to close a runway for a time, you immediately have to cancel or divert flights as there simply isn't sufficient time in the day to have them land or depart with the volumes Heathrow has.
I know the saying that it's the wrong type of snow sounds like an excuse, but the snow we get is different to other countries. Ours is generally 'wet' snow and it heavy and difficuly to move. The snow further north is a lot dryer and powdery so it's far easier to shift.
Darren
I thin that its unrealistic to expect a country or area of a country to invest endless resources for what is normally one bout of snow a year, it would mean other things suffered from a lack of investment and then people would just moan endlessly about them instead, and boy to people like to moan. At the end of the day there is a finite amount of money for all public and private bodies, and I guess they have to allocate priorities as required.
There always seems to be an assumption that we in the UK are dealing with things in a less effective way than other country's but nobody seems to back it up with hard facts.
Presumably some staff can't get in due to the bad weather so they end up trying to do more work with less people and still get it in the neck for not running a seamless service.
There always seems to be an assumption that we in the UK are dealing with things in a less effective way than other country's but nobody seems to back it up with hard facts.
Presumably some staff can't get in due to the bad weather so they end up trying to do more work with less people and still get it in the neck for not running a seamless service.
And in a way this is no different to the cost benefit analysis that most drivers do on an individual basis. After all, few UK drivers swap to winter tyres in November, unlike in the Alpine regions. The Scottish Government is looking at whether making the fitting of winter tyres compulsory here would make a difference.
I think that one of the biggest problems here in the UK is that we get a couple of episodes of severe weather each year but people expect everything to carry on as normal, insist on driving in very snowy conditions (not having fitted the winter tyres that would make that possible) end up abandoning their cars and then that makes it even harder for the snowploughs etc to get through and clear the roads.
As Doe and Darren say, if we want things to keep running then we have to make the necessary investment at both a public and a personal level.
SM
I think that one of the biggest problems here in the UK is that we get a couple of episodes of severe weather each year but people expect everything to carry on as normal, insist on driving in very snowy conditions (not having fitted the winter tyres that would make that possible) end up abandoning their cars and then that makes it even harder for the snowploughs etc to get through and clear the roads.
As Doe and Darren say, if we want things to keep running then we have to make the necessary investment at both a public and a personal level.
SM
SMa wrote:people expect everything to carry on as normal
I think that is the key factor here. At some point, you need to ensure you have your own things ready for winter rather than expect everyone else to have it done it for you. When winter arrives, you can't expect things to run as smoothly as it does in the summer.
Darren
How was it Gatwick managed to run as normal, i live 15 minutes from it and we had a lot of snow.
I think i remember reading somewhere of a country that had heated runways, but of course that would cost a fortune.
Also the planes have to be de-iced then once that is done they have to take off within a certain time, if not it all has to be done again.
I think i remember reading somewhere of a country that had heated runways, but of course that would cost a fortune.
Also the planes have to be de-iced then once that is done they have to take off within a certain time, if not it all has to be done again.
Wendy, gatwick has had some cancellations , but not many , it decided to spend 80m on snow fighting equipment and that helps , still doesn't explain why they can't be bothered to clear or grit the staff car parks after they have gone the extra bit to actually get in , 26 of my wife's colleagues in her department didn't get in yesterday , so even if you have an endless supply of snow clearing machines , plane de icers or even a heated runway 
if the staff who work for the airlines or airport can't get in from their own areas then its going to make the whole operation a bit more difficult or even chaotic .
Have to agree with exactly what Dazbo and Doe have said , if we are experiencing weather conditions that are not normal why do we expect everything to carry on as normal ?
My wife actually had a passenger thank her yesterday for being at work , she said " it's because of people like you making the effort that we are able to go off on holiday , thank- you "
We never see the media showing that type of response , they just want to portray Mr Angry with patronising sound bites.
I cant remember the country coming to a standstill then. :que
if the staff who work for the airlines or airport can't get in from their own areas then its going to make the whole operation a bit more difficult or even chaotic .Have to agree with exactly what Dazbo and Doe have said , if we are experiencing weather conditions that are not normal why do we expect everything to carry on as normal ?
doe wrote:
There always seems to be an assumption that we in the UK are dealing with things in a less effective way than other country's but nobody seems to back it up with hard facts.
Presumably some staff can't get in due to the bad weather so they end up trying to do more work with less people and still get it in the neck for not running a seamless service.
My wife actually had a passenger thank her yesterday for being at work , she said " it's because of people like you making the effort that we are able to go off on holiday , thank- you "
We never see the media showing that type of response , they just want to portray Mr Angry with patronising sound bites.
I cant remember the country coming to a standstill then. :que
That's a long time ago to remember and it probably did !!! And in relation to Heathrow they have around 45 planes in and out per hour, but because of having to keep clearing the runways , they managed to average 26 per hour overall , hardly coming to a standstill is it , and most cancellations would have been more than half empty domestic flights .
One of the biggest problems with heathrow is the amount of planes taking offand arriving virtually every minute.
what they realy need is more runways and none of these green people stopping progress.
what they realy need is more runways and none of these green people stopping progress.
madasharley wrote:what they realy need is more runways and none of these green people stopping progress.
It's a little more complicated than that and a little off-topic for here. But you're right, with the sheer volume of air traffic LHR deals with (operating at 99% capacity), you cannot clear runways and taxiways without reducing the amount of traffic.
Darren
madasharley wrote:One of the biggest problems with heathrow is the amount of planes taking offand arriving virtually every minute.
what they realy need is more runways and none of these green people stopping progress.
Or presumably none of the people living under the flight path who don't want the noise nuisance to increase any further either objecting either? Life would be so much easier for the rest of us and incoming tourists if they would just put up with it wouldn't it? Seriously, the problem is surely just as much about the idea that we need a single hub airport and it has to be Heathrow? I like many others up here in Scotland find it just as easy to do long haul via any one of a number of European hubs and might stop putting business in the way of the people who own and run Schipol, Frankfurt, Charles de Gaulle or Madrid if somewhere like Birmingham became a major hub as well instead if Heathrow just getting bigger and bigger. I already avoid Heathrow if I can and would make even greater effort to avoid it if it gets any bigger.
SM
some interesting posts 
OH told me that the problem they had was due to only person operating the airbridges- so the captain said.
To be running at 99% capacity is pretty astonishing - perhaps we should have a new thread discussing the pros and cons of another runway.
At least I know what the wrong kind of snow actually means
Sma- we use BA whenever we can( for the ff programme). We used to have various options for long haul flights but now its just connecting in Heathrow, and sometimes Gatwick. It's a real pity.
Judith- OH had no idea there was a strike- he said it all seemed quite normal.
OH told me that the problem they had was due to only person operating the airbridges- so the captain said. To be running at 99% capacity is pretty astonishing - perhaps we should have a new thread discussing the pros and cons of another runway.
At least I know what the wrong kind of snow actually means
Sma- we use BA whenever we can( for the ff programme). We used to have various options for long haul flights but now its just connecting in Heathrow, and sometimes Gatwick. It's a real pity.
Judith- OH had no idea there was a strike- he said it all seemed quite normal.
I know, it's a real pain, isn't it Fiona? Especially since I can't rely any more on BA sending my luggage on the same plane as me to Edinburgh! Last time it took them 3 days to get it couriered the 80 miles to my home!
SM
SM
i totally understand the noise problem so maybe extend gatwick more ? there was talk once of a major airport being built not far from me at newport but never came about instead we have to manage with cardiff/bristol for short flights but longhaul we have to travel to london which is a pain...
Noise is only one part of Heathrows problems. Its too complicated to get in to here as there's been debate over this for several years, but airlines want to use LHR as a hub airport with connects and some don't want expansion or use of any of London's other airports, of which there are many. They want everything under one roof so to speak. The problem then is this creates capacity issues for LHR as it can't expand without greater runway capacity. This is complicated due to cost and there's currently no room to build a new runway. It would mean compulsory purchase of a large number of houses and pretty much the loss of a village community, with very strong oposition as you can imagine when you're facing the loss of your home. I think the number was around 750 houses and we aren't talking 2 bed semi's in some cases. Then there's the governments policies on climate change. This is just the basics of the issues, its very complex and not just as simple as building a new runway, there are big social, economic and environmental factors to consider and hence the political u-turn under the current government.
Darren
Darren
I don't think heathrow will ever expand the loss of a whole village would be political suicide for whichever unlucky party happened to be in power at the time it was agreed. It wouldn't just affect the 750 people involved Everybody would be putting themselves in thelave of the people that would be directly involved and having a view, and voting accordingly.
I think when we have abnormal conditions its unfair to expect things to run normally.
My son was asked to do an 'extra' paper round on top of his own today.
It cost us more in petrol to take him out, we couldn't possibly let him do it on his own road and pavements too dangerous.
It was houses that are 750k up to 1.5 mill, (long drives that nobody had cleared) one bloke come out and DH thought he was gonna to congratulate him and DS for managing to get the papers there.
Guess what, he gave them right mouthful for there being no paper delivered yesterday. No doubt said sixty plus year old spent all day sitting on his fat arise. No wonder kids today don't respect adults.
That's the great British publish for you ! ! ! ! ! It was the Times FFS not life saving medical supplies.
We won't be getting our son to help out again or indeed help out ourselves.
I think when we have abnormal conditions its unfair to expect things to run normally.
My son was asked to do an 'extra' paper round on top of his own today.
It cost us more in petrol to take him out, we couldn't possibly let him do it on his own road and pavements too dangerous.
It was houses that are 750k up to 1.5 mill, (long drives that nobody had cleared) one bloke come out and DH thought he was gonna to congratulate him and DS for managing to get the papers there.
Guess what, he gave them right mouthful for there being no paper delivered yesterday. No doubt said sixty plus year old spent all day sitting on his fat arise. No wonder kids today don't respect adults.
That's the great British publish for you ! ! ! ! ! It was the Times FFS not life saving medical supplies.
We won't be getting our son to help out again or indeed help out ourselves.
The points made by Darren are spot on , the only major airline I can think of that uses other airports as well as LHR is Emirates , even BA is not too bothered about gatwick , but then when you look at T5 you can see why .
Perhaps the easiest and " softest" solution is a second runway at LGW which won't cost as much as other options and is less politically damaging and gatwick are being proactive in trying to solve runway capacity problems which will need to solved in the 2020s , there is a legal requirement that runs out in 2019 that could possibly open the way for a second runway at LGW . However as Darren said the airlines want everything under one roof so to speak , so all the talk about expanding airports elsewhere in the UK is wasted because the airlines are not interested in that .
Doe , it just shows that some people have a seriously bad attitude when others are trying to do their best , it seems when the going gets tough the " workers " those in businesses serving the public get stuck in and get on with it , while the ones in the centrally heated and carpeted world moan about how difficult it is to get in if they actually bother and then decide to pack up early because it might be a bit hard to get home .
Perhaps the easiest and " softest" solution is a second runway at LGW which won't cost as much as other options and is less politically damaging and gatwick are being proactive in trying to solve runway capacity problems which will need to solved in the 2020s , there is a legal requirement that runs out in 2019 that could possibly open the way for a second runway at LGW . However as Darren said the airlines want everything under one roof so to speak , so all the talk about expanding airports elsewhere in the UK is wasted because the airlines are not interested in that .
Doe , it just shows that some people have a seriously bad attitude when others are trying to do their best , it seems when the going gets tough the " workers " those in businesses serving the public get stuck in and get on with it , while the ones in the centrally heated and carpeted world moan about how difficult it is to get in if they actually bother and then decide to pack up early because it might be a bit hard to get home .
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