OK, I'll add my two-pennorth here. To start with I've never been A/I as it just doesn't appeal to me, though I can see it can be very useful for people with young families who need to have a very good idea of what they will be spending. As I travel solo I like to go half-board so I will meet other people at the hotel and there will be an evening meal if I want it, but otherwise I like to eat where the locals do. Most people on here know that I've been going to Tunisia for many years but I've also visited other places both in Europe and Asia. Many of the locals are relatively poor so I spend my money in their shops and restaurants, but that doesn't mean I want to be ripped off. I'm well aware that they have to make a living and don't have a problem with that. I remember a Tunisian friend taking something I'd bought in the Medina back to the shop and demanding some money back because he said I'd been charged too much.

With regard to tourists 'adjusting to the norms of behaviour' in the countries they visit, I find it strange that we complain about visitors to our country not adjusting to our norms, but feel we should be able to ride rough-shod over their susceptibilities when in their country. Dress and alcohol are cases in point. With all the information readilly available on the internet etc. there is no excuse for not knowing what is acceptable and, if this really doesn't suit us, we should perhaps find other destinations in which to take our holidays.

This is far broader than anticipated so I hope you get some interesting posts from this.

For me, I enjoy all sorts of holidays A/I BB HB and SC although for me SC can work out jolly expensive as I am now travelling alone. I do enjoy the A/I holidays I have everything I need on my doorstep from food to drink and indeed entertainment. I do however (where safe for me to do so) enjoy going outside of the complex looking at the local wares etc, and buying a few bits and bobs. I can understand why people want to take the A/I option they have everything there at their finger tips and for people on a budget if they chose not to they don't have to spend a fortune on other things if they don't want to.

I also understand that some people want the freedom of SC or BB so that they can eat and drink and party where ever they want to and spend in the local community. Whilst I accept that some of you may be taking a conscious decision to do that, I just question the reality of that with the vast majority, whether that is the underlying reason for taking a SC holiday? I am sure there will be influx of posters that say they book their holiday and first and foremost reason is to repay the local community in whatever country they happen to visit, we'll see!!

For me, being honest here folks, my first and foremost reason is to have a blinking good rest and spend some cash that I have worked and saved for, I do tip and and spend local, but selfishly my primary reason is for Miss Pink R & R.

I do agree with respecting locals in dress sense or whatever the local law may be - as last poster has said, the internet is a vast source of information, and if you travel to a country that you have never been before it takes but a few minutes to investigate, i.e. topless sunbathing.

My first and foremost reason for booking most holidays is also for a bit of R & R but I also enjoy the experience of discovering new places and cultures and having made the decision that I want visit a particular place, then lots of other considerations kick in. For example, if travelling on my own I have often gone HB for exactly the same reasons that Aslemma outlines. But when travelling with friends and family I invariably go SC because of the opportunities it gives me to learn far more about local culture and meet up with local people. I long ago realised that I really relish immersing myself in local life or at least as far as is ever possible as a short term visitor and that that is the main source of enjoyment for me on a holiday.

Until my last trip this July, when visiting Cuba I have always stayed with local families, in the first instance because this was the default mode for the sort of holiday offered by the specialist company I was booking with. If I wanted to go on their dance and language holiday then the deal was bed, breakfast and evening meal as a 'homestay'. Yes, it was with some trepidation that I embarked on this for the first time but I discovered that I loved it. And once I discovered more about the economics of the Cuban tourist industry I decided that this was about the only way of really making sure that as much as possible of what my holiday was going to cost ended up in the hands of local people and and as a result, fed almost entirely into the local economy too. It certainly isn't especially cheap to do it this way. In fact it's possible to get much cheaper package deals to AI hotels - I just prefer to put money into the hands of local people than into the coffers of big multinational hotel companies and the Cuban Government. Though I still do prefer to put it into the hands of the government rather than a multinational, so would always prefer to stay in a wholly Cuban owned hotel than a joint venture one.

However, this last trip I did a tour of the island and for various reasons I decided that I wasn't up to travelling independently this time, so I was in the hands of Havanatour when it came to where I stayed - as a state owned company they obviously prefer to use hotels rather than homestays. It made me realise just how divorced one is from everyday life in Cuba if one does stay in hotels, and to be honest, I increasingly felt as if I could be in any good hotel anywhere in the world from which we made forays into one big theme park called 'Cuba World'. Even more dispiriting was that by the time I'd survived the AI experience in Varadero, and seen how corrupting that could be for both tourists and staff, I began to question the whole AI concept. It had never previously appealed to me, though I could understand why it would be a godsend for families, but it was offered to me as an add-on to my tour at a knockdown price and I was persuaded not to knock it until I had tried it. Big mistake for me. I ended up disgusted by the scale of food and drink that was wasted and ended up loathing the attitude of so many of the other guests. And ended up feeling equally jaundiced about the attitude of the Cuban staff who with a few exceptions behaved in a surly and churlish manner unless tipped in advance. But I had to acknowledge that if I had to throwaway that sort of quantity of food at every mealtime knowing that many Cubans had less food on their plates at meal times than so many of these tourists were leaving to be thrown away, then I'd probably be in a semi-permanent grump too.

So what had started out as a broad feeling about AI not being the sort of thing that appealed to me even though I could see why it appealed to others, was really crystallised into a strong view that the overall 'cost' of an AI holiday was about a lot more than just the cash that holidaymakers paid for it. There was clearly a price being paid in so many other ways that did not reflect well on either the visitor or the local staff and this is what I meant by the corrupting influence of it. What had happened to visitors that it some how felt OK to them to help themselves to food that then gets thrown away, in a country where basic foodstuffs are rationed for the local population? Or to discard most of a drink simply because it had got warm standing around in the heat? And equally, what had happened to the friendliness and welcoming attitudes that I was used to in my contacts with Cubans that this was now replaced with either a surly attitude that was only dispensed with after the tip had been given - or just as bad, the servile wheedling that some of the chambermaids engaged in in order to ensure that they did get a decent tip when guests left?

Things which I would have previously had a intuitive feeling for, such as clause No 1 in the job description for Tourist being 'Spend money, it's the only reason they put up with some of the things tourists do' became much easier to articulate and led me to really question some of the things that I'd not really questioned in depth before. I try to shop ethically wherever possible, I buy only fair trade goods where there is choice, I avoid buying really cheap clothes because of concerns about the conditions under which they are produced and this aI experience in Cuba made me think that in all conscience I really should be thinking much more carefully about whether I was holidaying as ethically I could too.

SM

I travel regularly but mostly within Europe.

I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread, and would agree with you SMa, that the six days I spend in Varadero on a DIY holiday a few years' ago, felt very much like a gilded cage, and I 'escaped' regularly and visited the local towns and also some excursions, having spent a wonderful week wandering freely all over Havana and met all sorts of folk and seen more than most visitors do. At that time there were only two state agencies, Cubanatour and Havanatour, and I used the latter. They were good for their time and the political situation, but visitors from outside Cuba bring their own perceptions of 'must-do's' and 'must-haves' which are often far from even the wildest dreams of native Cubans. I really enjoyed Cuba but fear returning, because it has 'taken off' as a popular destination. Now you may well define that as my being snobby, but what I mean is that if large crowds of different nationalities 'find' a place, the local infrastructure has to change to accommodate them, and this can lead to a sense of unreality and the 'gilded cage' mentality - all inclusive, loads of food and drink and plenty of free time - all of which are very far from the reality for the native Cubans, who remain positive and cheerful despite what has almost become a two-tier system ......... them (the visitors who have everything) and us (the locals who have to be grateful for what they can get).

But it happens closer to home to. I'm speaking from experience when I say, look at the resorts of Mallorca. Palma Nova and Magaluf are nearly exclusively British, and Arenal and Playa de Palma are heavily weighted towards the Germans. There are other resorts like this too, on other parts of the island. As regards the Adriatic, Bellaria is 'little Alsace on Sea', and just a few miles south is Rimini 'little Germany on Sea'. Traditional British resorts have tended to be Cattolica and Pesaro - further south, and on the Venitian coast, Lido di Jesolo was previously visited by the British.

Here in Alsace, the Danes are the first visitors of the summer, as their schools break up earlier than ours, then the ever-present Germans - all year visitors, given their proximity to here - and we see increasing numbers of Swiss, Belgians (for whom Alsace is enroute to the paradise of the hot south) and Italians (many many of whom have camping cars, just like the Germans). Brits are relatively few, but are well-respected by the local communities (after all they and the Americans liberated Alsace in 1945), and many tourist signs and information leaflets are written in German, English and Italian. Thankfully there's no problems with the currency now that we all use the Euro (I've seen many a German trying to insist on paying in Deutschmarks, and sometimes succeeding but at a lamentably low rate!!) but the tourist infrastructure of roads, hotels, wineries offering tastings, souvenir shops etc has snowballed. Luckily we still have protected Sunday opening hours - bakeries in the morning and only souvenir shops and restaurants and cafés all day; no supermarkets or grocery stores.

My choice when I'm on holiday is to explore and visit the country I am a guest in. I suppose I don't consider it so baldly as 'helping the local economy', but the reason I travel is to enjoy experiencing local food, drink, customs and sights. I like moving around amongst the locals - a headscarf and dark glasses give me a head start in Moroccan and Turkish markets - taking public transport where possible and trying 'local' things, rather than enjoying the familiarity of a particular brand of beer or hamburger, though I am aware of the downside of this - the runs, and other ailments! I find that a smile helps to make communication easier, and also to speak slowly in English if the local tongue is beyond me ... mind you the words toilet/yes/no/please/thank you/hello/goodbye (not necessarily in that order) get things off to a good start.

I still have to learn that the pace of life in some of the countries that I visit is not the same as back home. I think one of the most difficult lessons to learn, especially in a foreign country, is that things are not done 'right' or 'wrong' when compared to one's home country but simply differently and it's up to us to make the effort to stretch our thinking and tolerance level. Many times I fail to do this and end up grumbling darkly, but it is a good lesson to learn and to try to apply as often as possible!

After all, in all things as well as travel, an optimist may be as mistaken as a pessimist, but at least s/he is happy! Happy Landings!

I really enjoyed Cuba but fear returning

Sorry, I'm in danger of taking this off-topic myself so will keep it brief and we can always follow this up via PMs. If you didn't visit Santiago de Cuba when you went then I think that you'll still experience there what you experienced in Havana. Most of my time on previous trips to Cuba has been spent there, and even though I was staying in a hotel this time too rather than is a casa particulare it was as great as always. Santiago is still very untouristy compared to cities like Trinidad and Havana. Cubanatour and Havanatour are still the only two 'in state' companies and interestingly, now that there is more money flowing in the local economy and Cubans can afford to more freely travel in their own country, Cubanatour seems to concentrate on the local domestic market and Havanatour is the one that mainly deals with foreign visitors - another example of the two tier system you are obviously familiar with.

As I said, PM me if you want to continue this conversation in more depth. Or perhaps we could take it to the Cuba thread on the Caribbean forum?

SM

I have only stayed AI once and that was for two nights in Trinidad Cuba during a tour of the country a couple of years ago and like SMa I was horrified at the amount of food wasted by guests in a part of the world that has huge shortages of even the most basic products. Luckily I didn't choose to extend my tour by staying in Varedero but can imagine I would have been quite upset with the tourists behaviour. Having said that I am not against AI I feel that in these days of shrinking budgets it's probably a lifesaver for many families who want to have sun and sand but at a manageable price.
I have in the past travelled quite extensively, totally alone, with groups, with a friend or very occasionally with my husband (he hates travelling) and I try to use local facilities. I'm finding travelling increasingly hard work, not what I enjoyed in my younger years and I will probably start taking more of my trips with tour groups to cut out what is becoming a hassle. I certainly wished I had been with a group or a friend when I was stranded for a while in Bangkok last year due to the protests, I was happy to wander around on my own and I enjoyed finding new places to eat but it would have been nice to have someone to talk to during my meals. Last year I toured Laos with a small group (just 3 others) and we stayed mostly in small guest houses, we ate in local restaurants and by doing this met and conversed (or tried to) with locals and I felt the money I had spent went back into the community.My holidays are possibly different from many, I get bored just relaxing so holidays are usually pretty active I do get an opportunity to meet locals and it usually follows that I end up putting quite a lot of cash back into the local economy.I try to be a responsible tourist and buy local products when away and Fair Trade items when at home.

This is a great idea for a topic, and it's interesting to read different people's responses.
We have done diy holidays to Nerja for the last 6 years, always staying in an independently owned apartment in the old town which is more traditionally Spanish. We use public transport to and from the airport, and spend our time in the local tapas bars trying out our dodgy Spanglish (I'm sure we have provided great entertainment to the staff over the years!). To be honest, the ethics had not really been a part of why we do this, not consciously anyway. We prefer to be away from the stereotypical holidaymaker and see the local life. Thinking about it more, if the place succumbed to the AI or British/Irish themed bar culture, the elements we enjoy about our holidays would probably diminish. We stayed in a hotel there once as we went with my inlaws who were a little hesitant about going diy, and we didn't like it, and couldn't wait to be in a self catering apartment again. However, when we went to Cuba in may 2008, we saw little choice but to stay in an AI hotel. We decided to stay in the Holguin region as there is a bit more local life there, and we were able to go to Holguin and Santiago on trips. We'd love to go again, as we loved the people and learning about the culture, but felt quite cooped up in an AI hotel. It certainly opened my eyes to the ethics of our holiday choice when we were speaking to the staff about what it was like to live there and their rationing system. Sorry to ramble, I think what I'm trying to say is that although the reason we choose to holiday the way we do isn't specifically down to ethics, it wouldn't be the same if no-one had any consideration for it, and because of the sort of holiday we enjoy, it wouldn't be our choice to go AI unless that was pretty much the only option.

Just because some travellers decide to go A/I this does not necessarily mean that they are going to sit by the blessed pool and sip beer all day (if they do that's their choice), they can and do (as I do), visit the local shops and buy, use local transport, tip too.

What has niggled me slightly is that their seems to be a a bit of a holier that thou attitude that if holidaymakers select the A/I route then shame on us/them.

heir seems to be a a bit of a holier that thou attitude

unfortunately this will always be,

we have all sorts of holidays from AI to SC and hotels to camping, most of our trips abroad are HB this gives peace of mind in that should your bank card be declined/stolen you still have a roof over your head and 2 meals a day, we are going AI in December firstly as it was a free upgrade and secondly if work slows up much more i wont have to worry about buying anything, we do however still tend to sped a lot of our time away from our residences whether just a walk or an organised trip..

now to the rub.... the hotels we tend to use employ mainly local staff, the kitchens tend to use local produce [to keep cost down] and we drink the local beer/wine etc so however you look at it we as guest in any given country are supporting the local population... or put another way

when on Holiday i have at least 2 brewers/vintners plus 3or 4 farmers a bar man a waiter, several cooks, a cleaner and a tobacconist to support

I don't think you will have a lot of response to this Topic due to the length of some of the postings.
I am sure that most holiday makers on HT, myself included, don't want to be preached to and therefore they won't bother to read them.

Wizard, you have got it right - just a few sentences to put your point forward and let everyone make up their own minds.

I am sure that most holiday makers on HT, myself included, don't want to be preached to

My point exactly

People putting forward their own point of view gives others the opportunity to consider theirs and I really don't think anyone is trying to 'preach'. I do just wonder however why those who prefer the A/I option feel such a need to be so defensive.

I find it strange that we complain about visitors to our country not adjusting to our norms, but feel we should be able to ride rough-shod over their susceptibilities when in their country

I found that was probably the most interesting point made so far in a thought-provoking topic.

We nearly always stay self-catering on a small island and therefore buy everything in the local shops or tavernas/bars. There aren't many hotels in Symi. After many years, the locals still seem pleased to see us so we must be doing something right.

Most importantly, I agree absolutely with Wizard's final statement. Long may it continue.

aslemma wrote:

People putting forward their own point of view gives others the opportunity to consider theirs and I really don't think anyone is trying to 'preach'. I do just wonder however why those who prefer the A/I option feel such a need to be so defensive.

Probably because the moment they mention they are going AI they seem to suffer some form of verbose attack. It's a two week holiday choice not a philosophy one for it's popularity that seems to suit an awful lot of folks at these money strapped times.

It is all well and good being holier than thou and 'trying to do things for the locals' but as Wizard says, there is still employment created in AI establishments and often it seems a lot more secure for the locals than a fly by night bar or cafe that is here one moment and gone the next (and yes before I am part-quoted, I know that's the point that some are trying to make). As an example the staff at the Belcekic Beach Club in Turkey are one of the happiest bunch of people I have ever seen and most of them have been there for many many years. All the food and drink has to be sourced from somewhere and there are armys of staff cleaning, cooking, managing, waiting in the a la cartes etc

I fail to see how my staying there is not contributing in someway to the local economy.

Have only stayed AI twice , the first time was a hotel of our choice and was lovely , could not complain at all . the second time we booked a AOA as it was only hubby and myself , and we saw a difference straight away . To us it seemed as though some, not all children were left to roam around all day and night while mum and dad were around the pool drinking all day , children were throwing food around in the dining rooms at snack times , being abusive to staff , and then when told off or asked to leave , mum and or dad would be there causing a scene "not my child and my child wouldn't do that " how would they know they weren't there , that really spoilt it for us . In saying that though each to their own and i think AI does work out at good value for those on a budget and with children . Personally i wont use AI again unless i went long haul , maybe we were just unlucky in the Hotel we were allocated , but i have since heard it referred to by locals as the Zoo. After the first few days we would have breakfast and then go out for the day , eating and drinking in local bars, the same of an evening if we didn't like the look of what was for the main meal we would eat out , usually stay out , and then when we got back to hotel AI was over and paid for our drinks .

Hi, if I had to think of all these things before I booked a holiday I would never go. To me and my family a holiday is the chance to leave cares behind and relax, and AI appeals to us. If we decide to sit by the pool all day we can and if we like to partake in a little tipple we do. I think its like a lot of problems in the world, some people are passionate about different causes and there will always be no right or wrong way to solve them.

Well if I go AI it tends to be for selfish reasons and is wholly dependent upon where I am holidaying and how I am holidaying.

Cuba is one of those islands that is pretty much out on its own and I understand completely the reservations that a lot have about AI there but it's different to every other caribbean island and AI anywhere else because of the communist situation there. I don't think an AI holiday in Cuba should put anyone off AI anywhere else.

I actually figure that I spend money in a certain country and locality purely by booking the accommodation there anyway. I don't usually have a lot to spend on shopping and buying local products anyway and I don't go on holiday to shop. I do know people who make a point of always buying little things from local shops or markets to contribute more fairly but I really only buy if I fancy treating myself to something. I like to enjoy local bars and restaurants but some holidays aren't as conducive to this.

I will be going to Sharm in November and staying AI and to be honest I plan on doing 1/2 trips into the dessert and otherwise staying put enjoying the sunshine and the facilities of the resort. I won't be feeling guilty about that. That is what I tend to do if I go AI anyway - but then I've only done it once in DR and the tendency was not really to go out of the resort to eat/drink although we did a few times with hotel staff.

If you go on a trip to London do you think you should be visiting some sink estate and using their local shops to help them out?

Where do ethics enter into an individual's decision to go AI, half board or even self catering?

Financially we all have our limitations and it is very easy to be critical of what others might do. Perhaps we should extend it to food, clothes, and all the other items we buy. Don't shop at Primark because all their clothes are made in third world countries where wages are pence per hour. At least they are open about it. Many of the so called designer items are made in the same factory - does the price and label make it more ethical?

I go AI and my decision to spend money outside the hotel/complex is for me to make. If someone decides not to go outside it is their business. What right have I to criticise?

fwh

this thread is not purely about the ethics of AI, but also about how we the tourists treat the locals and their customs.
i have no problem going AI as i go on holiday to rest. if i stay in the hotel all day and night for 2 weeks that is my choice -its my money and i will spend it how i choose. however i personally find that after about 2 days i need to escape, and so even on AI i will explore the resort, eat and drink when i'm hungry or thirsty, regardless of having already paid for AI,and search out the local likestyle.
my main concerns are the way we the tourists behave while on holiday.
i nowadays go regularly to the costa brava, mainly to lloret de mar,and find the behaviour of the brits, and to an extent the germans, to be almost arrogant.
we seem to think that we can go there on holiday, never need to learn the language -not even please or thank you - don't need to worry about how our drunken behaviour affects the locals;complain about everything thats not the same as at home and generally ignore the local culture.
i know that the above is a generalisation, but the ones who stand out are never the ones who try to fit in!
i regularly use a lovely little spanish bar near a very popular hotel,and the owners speak only in spanish. i am welcomed as senor rioja and can just about hold a conversation with them. after one night being wished "goodnight senor rioja, see you tomorrow" i enquired about this sudden ability to speak english and was told that they do not speak english as they do not want their bar full up with the british tourists who take over the bars and by only speaking in spanish they force the brits to either speak some spanish or go elsewhere. that is one of the reasons i keep going back there, and also why i dont recommend it to brits who want to go "somewhere local".
in this country we supposedly embrace multi-culturalism.
we want immigrants/visitors to fit into our society; to obey our laws, to work for a living and pay their way. we want to deport people who do not obey our laws.
yet, when we go abroad we think that everyone else should adapt to us and our ways.
this to me is the worst aspect of our tourists; we show no respect to our hosts.
maybe the ethics we should be concerned with is manners and respect.