Hi fwd, - many thanks you’re your comments and appreciate that you recognise I’m not posting on here just to have a rant. (OK, well maybe just a mini-rant!). Really, I do want to warn the thousands of folks who take these holidays with so called responsible and trustworthy companies have no protection if they book these excursions from reps. Unless you are absolutely insured up to the eyeballs with your own comprehensive insurance, - you are absolutely on your own if anything happens. What the reps say and what is now included in all their small print, give you absolutely no more protection than if you buy your excursions from a hawker on the street corner. I’m also trying to engage with anyone that may have been on holiday a couple of years ago and experienced the same kind of sales pitch to verify what I am claiming.

Unfortunately for me, this accident happened in 2009. The interpretation of the Holiday Package regulations around that time, excluded any excursions bought locally, even from the likes of Thomson and First Choice. If anything happened, you had no comeback as you were deemed to be outside of any regulations.

Following some subsequent court cases, it was deemed that tour operators were actually responsible if they sold excursions on the basis of “we will provide….”, “our excursions…” etc. Since these cases, tour companies are more than careful to have printed somewhere on their websites or documentation a disclaimer, stating that you are NOT dealing with them, but whatever third party supplying the excursion. So anything that is currently on websites or in print reflects this.

In fact, in my research I have discovered training companies offering seminars to the travel industry in the light of this change of interpretation, warning that tour operators must be more careful in the way they sell excursions, (and offering training in how to get around liability!). What would be really helpful to me is hearing from anyone who may have taken holidays a couple of years ago before they started really started covering their posteriors with small print disclaimers and the message had not quite got through to local reps who were saying anything to sell their excursions.

In my situation, a TUI flew the plane that got me to the holiday, I think the hotel is owned by TUI, all the reps were TUI uniformed, - almost a TUI Butlins. There was no mention of third parties, or you must carry your own insurance, - quite the reverse, it is my contention that they actively sold the excursions on the basis of full insurance and UK standards and the locals did not have this. If the reality is that there are no local standards, and there is no insurance, - why raise these issues at all? Or better still, inform your customers of the facts.

Regarding the “duty of care”, that’s a real biggie with me. I’ve kept any postings focused on the basics of TUI being responsible and highlighting the issue of no local standards, (meaning that regardless of what their reps say, if there are no local standards, then they broke nothing) - because unfortunately for me that is what I have to establish in order to take legal action.

Duty of care comes afterwards, after the accident. I have a six inch folder on this issue and the way I was treated after the accident was horrendous, no stretcher, no ambulance, no doctor, dumped semi-conscious and injured back at the hotel and TUI did nothing, - had to organise medical attention for myself. This makes me particularly angry, given what happened I could easily have been paralysed or killed. The Natasha Richardson case would be quite close to my own situation and continues to haunt me, - I consider I had a very lucky escape. However, my solicitor, (who is lovely), informs me that unless I can establish the basics for a court case, ie am I suing the right people, - then what happened after the accident becomes irrelevant. Of course, there is always the danger, and I’m sure TUI rely on this, that if I proceed and it is thrown out or dismissed on a technicality, I don’t just end up picking up my own legal bill, - but theirs as well.

Hi Shelagh, and thanks for your comments. I am as guilty as anyone of being wise with hindsight. Been on holiday before and fallen for the blurb that all the locals are sharks and you can trust us. Indeed, it’s only in recent years I took out holiday insurance at all when I started to take holidays outside the EU. I’m sure there are folks here who travel without insurance at all and get fooled into believing they are covered by the tour operators insurance in case of mishap.

The excursions I bought were purchased on the back of a verbal presentation by the reps, - so in my case there was no small print at all. However it does not surprise me in the slightest that they are now covering themselves by putting this in small print to avoid any responsibility. Although this gets them legally off the hook, I do quite agree with you that if it’s so tiny or not emphasised, it does appear to be unfair. How many people on holiday and having a nice time really peruse all the closely printed terms and conditions, usually tucked away at the back?

Regarding home insurance covering legal expenses. Absolutely, I have that, and went straight to the policy to read through it all. Unfortunately when I got to THEIR small print I discovered that Egypt was one of the few named countries in the world not covered.

In fact, another warning, - it is extremely difficult to get a solicitor to take your case for a foreign country accident. I was lucky enough to find a really good company, (whose name I will post up here in the future, if allowed), who have some experience in this area, - however even my own company inform me that it is not feasible to sue an Egyptian supplier as apart from the practicalities of trying to take a case in a foreign country, different language, legal systems, standrads (if any) - and any award would be outweighed by the expense.

So, even if there was a fully documented, open and shut case, obvious liability, - then no UK solicitor would touch it. I know this now from my own experience, TUI have a Legal Department and a posse of highly paid solicitors, - so they certainly know it. However, TUI seem happy to currently sell their deathtrap excursions, distancing themselves from liability and knowing that you will probably fail if you try and sue any local company. Ah well, I’m sure it improves their profit results!

Another piece of advice would be that if anyone believes they have a claim against a tour company, do not waste your time engaging with them if they appear to be giving you the run around. This apparently is par for the course and they try and “lose” claims by messing people about and dragging it all out, in the hope that people just go away. I wasted years trying to engage with them and at no point did they deny liability and they requested, and got, every scintilla of information I had. Even when I eventually contacted a solicitor, they did not deny liability. It has literally been at the last minute, as I approach the time limits for legal action, that they have come up with this, and they are trying to distort some of the information I provided them with.

So, if you think you have a claim, contact a solicitor who deals with travel claims sooner, rather than later and take advice on what you should be giving them and do not try and be reasonable. Because they just don’t play reasonable.

i'm so sorry you are having such a big problem.
There was an article in yesterdays Sunday papers about a woman who had died on a quad bike her son was driving. I even think he was prosecuted for not having a driving licence. I don't know about you but I have never been asked about a driving licence when hiring a quad bike.

In Egypt (May this year) we went on a quad bike excursion and we were warned NOT to book outside of the hotel as those sellers did not have insurance and we wouldn't be covered. !! That was a Thomson holiday too - so someone somewhere is lying if they say this is not happening these days.!

Hi Denny,

Many thanks for your reply. Very interesting that Thomson are STILL selling excursions in this way. (If you don’t buy your excursion from us you will not be insured). I know when I bought my excursion that is the way it was sold, - but of course they totally deny it. I also knew that they were now aware that if they sold like this they became liable because of a couple of court cases, and from the feed back I have got they are being careful to include somewhere in the small print that you are not dealing with them. It is total mis-selling. Either they are selling you an insured excursion that meets standards or you are not. When they tell you that the locals are not insured, it indicates that they are!

Hi all, just thought I would take this opportunity to thank Holiday Truths for allowing open discussion on this topic. I posted a similar opening post on Trip Advisor. (Search their Sharm el Sheikh forum, about 6 pages back now, - or search under my name "Qwennie" or probably "excursions").

Obviously the post slipped through at Trip Advisor. I got a lot of response, comments and advice from some kind people. However, Trip Advisor then started deleting posts left, right and centre, - nothing rude or offensive, a number of posts were mine. They then closed the topic. I tried to set up a similar topic and it was deleted immediately.

Call me paranoid if you will. But I have to ask, - who does Trip Advisor get more revenue from, TUI, Thomsons and First Choice, - or Qwennie who takes a holiday every couple of years and can't get her teeth fixed after an accident? Trip Advisor prides itself on offering impartial advice and comments, - but does not allow open criticism of a big boy Tour Operator?

So take a well deserved bow, Holiday Truths, and my sincere thanks for allowing me to air my views.

Qwennie wrote:

Either they are selling you an insured excursion that meets standards or you are not. When they tell you that the locals are not insured, it indicates that they are!

Can't help with any remedies but .....

I'm afraid that the main learning points that come from this thread are :-
1. NO local excursion operators are likely to meet UK safety standards for equipment or supervision
2. They won't carry sufficient ,or indeed any form of public liability/personal accident insurance
3. Read your own travel policy VERY carefully before doing ANY excursion whilst on holiday

If in doubt -DON'T do it!!!

Qwennie wrote:

Hi all, just thought I would take this opportunity to thank Holiday Truths for allowing open discussion on this topic. I posted a similar opening post on Trip Advisor. (Search their Sharm el Sheikh forum, about 6 pages back now, - or search under my name "Qwennie" or probably "excursions").

Obviously the post slipped through at Trip Advisor. I got a lot of response, comments and advice from some kind people. However, Trip Advisor then started deleting posts left, right and centre, - nothing rude or offensive, a number of posts were mine. They then closed the topic. I tried to set up a similar topic and it was deleted immediately.

Call me paranoid if you will. But I have to ask, - who does Trip Advisor get more revenue from, TUI, Thomsons and First Choice, - or Qwennie who takes a holiday every couple of years and can't get her teeth fixed after an accident? Trip Advisor prides itself on offering impartial advice and comments, - but does not allow open criticism of a big boy Tour Operator?

So take a well deserved bow, Holiday Truths, and my sincere thanks for allowing me to air my views.

Unfortunately the Sinia forums on Trip Adviser as so heavily moderated that anything other than bland posts about hotel recommendations seems to be deleted. Posters on there don't seem to stand a chance with anything slightly contentious, or designed to inform/warn

Isnt Trip Advisor owned by Expedia and Tui
They dont want any negative posts regarding Thomson and their associated companies,

Trip Advisor is a total waste of space.

GoanMad Tony wrote:

Trip Advisor is a total waste of space.

....little bit harsh!!! - there is lots of useful info. on TA amongst the rants and dross - for instance, there are quite a few hotels in Kenya/Caribbean with loads of customer reviews which don't feature here on HT - as long as you fliter out the outliers they can be very informative. Also I've had quite a few questions answered via their forums when I couldn't find the info. over here. Like anything, you have to engage your brain and evaluate the information before trusting it.

MMM this is interesting as we have been to sharm 10-11 times (lost count). Ourselves and a few others was picked up in a broken old jeep to go horse riding along the beach. The jeep was driven by a foreign woman, not even Egyptian. Anyway we got half way to our destination and the tyres all blew out, yeah all of them. There we all were stranded in the middle of the desert and a few half built houses. We all went near to the houses are everyone was concerned the jeep was going to blow up in flames. The woman was frantic trying to get another source of transport.

Low and behold a builders van full of Egyptians were passing by, she flagged them down, we were all shoved in 120 degree heat on top of the van. They took us to the horse riding place and came back for us all later. We were dirty and furious at the way this woman treated us, no sorry s or anything.

When we got back tot he hotel we complained to the thomson rep, she thought it was hilarious and said it was something to tell the kids when we got back home !! These things happen yeah right, driving in a heap of a jeep with only a second gear. Thomson would not give any form of refund because we had our own personal insurance Nothing else was done.

As for quads, i have had no problems with Thomson on the quads, they are or were all brand new, only Thomson groups were riding singles, all helmets and safety precautions and a trial is giving, in fact it was excellent, we have been on this trip 8 times at least.

In regards of insurance when quading, Thomson will not pay out if you injure yourself on their insurance, they told me this a few years ago. I take out insurance myself and make sure quads are included, eg, they are below 1000 cc. All the thomson quads are 998 so my insurers are happy. Last year went on the quads with Red Sea Holiday, the rep came with us and we had a good time being in a small group, but these quads had seen better days, and certainly didnt look safe, but they were but were old.

My advice to anyone doing activities in sharm in particular, make sure you get it in writing from your insurer.

Hi guys and thanks for the responses.

Can't help with any remedies but .....

I'm afraid that the main learning points that come from this thread are :-
1. NO local excursion operators are likely to meet UK safety standards for equipment or supervision
2. They won't carry sufficient ,or indeed any form of public liability/personal accident insurance
3. Read your own travel policy VERY carefully before doing ANY excursion whilst on holiday

If in doubt -DON'T do it!!!

Brewerdave. (Must find out how you clip postings!). Absolutely agree with the above, - have totally learned my lesson the hard way. I hope, if nothing else, that the message gets over to others what the repercussions can be.

I did have insurance. Bought it online, and the cover note stated “Worldwide, All risks excluding skiing”, - as there are few ski slopes in Egypt, I really thought I had it covered. The cover note and policy details I printed out did not show the exclusions. It was not until I got home and trawled their website for terms and conditions that I discovered that “activity sports” were not covered. So absolutely, be really, really sure you know what your cover includes.

Should point out that activity sports covers a lot of ground. My accident was on a quad bike, but the definition includes, Paragliding, diving, sailing etc., - not sure if camel riding is included! So again, be aware of how any excursion you buy falls within your insurance.

I thought I had insurance, but I didn’t. But a lot of people still travel without insurance. I’m now effectively in that category. So again, can I please warn people that whatever the rep at the hotel says to you, - you have NO insurance cover with them and you are on your own.

From my postings I’ve been contacted by people who inform me that these tour operators are STILL currently selling excursions saying you are covered by insurance and they meet UK safety standards. THIS IS NOT TRUE. However if the worst happens, you will have the devil of a job trying to prove that they told you this. BE CAREFUL.

I haven’t been on holiday since I had this accident, (partly due to the fact I still have problems from the accident). I’ve always taken excursions when on holiday, to see a bit of the local culture etc., - never been one to stayed holed up in the hotel. However, inf future I will most certainly be more careful and not take any chances. I think it will be a toe in the kiddies paddling pool and bingo and a nice cup of tea in the hotel lobby from now on!!!

I checked the ownership of Trip Advisor, and it does appear to be part of the Expedia Group, - could find no mention of TUI, but, - as I’m learning, - everything’s possible!!!

I always considered Trip Advisor my Bible if I was looking for a hotel or restaurant. Absolutely as brewerdave says, if you use your head and sift through the postings and weed out the obvious ones, - mass posted by the hotel relatives and employees, - it’s a useful tool.

However, I always believed it was impartial and fairly honest, - and that it really was a forum for the general Joe Soaps to give their opinion. I totally understand that forums cannot allow folks to use insulting language, be abusive or try and get a plug in for whatever they represent and try and sell you something. However, I posted nothing more offensive than I have posted here. Considering the experiences I have had with TUI, (and I have not mentioned my dealing with them since I returned after my accident, - really disgraceful, - and would probably merit a book!!!), - I am certainly angry, but have tried to outline the situation logically and quite happy to listen, to take on board, and to respond to folks who did not necessarily agree with me.

That Trip Advisor moderate their innumerable forums to the extent that free speech is not allowed against a huge tour operator, really does say something about for whose benefit the site is being run for. If I cannot criticise a tour operator on their site, - how do I know that if I post a critical comment against one of the “preferred partners” hotel or restaurant that it will actually appear, - or will it be deleted?. In other words, they cannot be trusted. I will certainly, in future, if I am reading hotel reviews on Trip Advisor, I will be putting my cynical hat on first. Such a pity, a good idea and a good site, - but absolutely slanted!!!

Hi Derwentrocker. Many thanks for your comments and certainly it appears that some of your experiences have been a bit hit and miss. Being stranded in the desert sounds horrendous! But it doesn’t surprise me that the rep laughed it all off.

I have just received the First Choice reps report made after my accident. I was really badly injured and had to be hospitalised immediately and have the records to prove it. However the rep claims in her report I was laughing and joking and refused all offers of help. (I had to sit down with a large glass of gin when I read that!!!) In fact, I was told by this girl who had sold me this “fully insured excursion” the day before, that I would have to claim off my own insurance and it was nothing to do with them.

I would have no problem if the reps selling these excursions give you the facts and leave you to make your own decision as to whether your insurance covers you or whether you want to take the risk. But from some of the responses I have had, this does happen sometimes, but is the exception rather than the rule. TUI are STILL selling excursions the way I was sold mine, but not honouring what they say.

I understand that the reps are youngsters, out in the sun for a few years and having a bit of fun. I know they are probably paid poorly and rely on selling excursions to make up their money. But TUI must be aware that this is happening. I actually received an email from an ex-Thomsons rep who told me that she sold excursions like this. Occasionally there was a problem, but she always genuinely believed that it was sorted out by the company afterwards. She was quite horrified that her ex-employer could have been washing its hands of responsibility of excursions she had sold and had gone wrong.

I know I’m beginning to sound like a ranting loony on a mission, but really TUI either have to fully inform guests buying their excursions of the facts regarding excursions, and train their staff accordingly. Or they have to stop selling these excursions. Or, if they continue their present practices, - honour the statements their representatives make to sell excursion.

Hmmm, just noticed that Holiday Watchdog, Virtual Tourist and Seat Guru, as well as Trip Advisor, are all owned by Expedia. Sounds a little likke a monopoly of review sites to me.

Qwennie wrote:

Hmmm, just noticed that Holiday Watchdog, Virtual Tourist and Seat Guru, as well as Trip Advisor, are all owned by Expedia. Sounds a little likke a monopoly of review sites to me.

so is cruise critic.

Qwennie wrote:

I did have insurance. Bought it online, and the cover note stated “Worldwide, All risks excluding skiing”, - as there are few ski slopes in Egypt, I really thought I had it covered. The cover note and policy details I printed out did not show the exclusions. It was not until I got home and trawled their website for terms and conditions that I discovered that “activity sports” were not covered. So absolutely, be really, really sure you know what your cover includes.

Should point out that activity sports covers a lot of ground. My accident was on a quad bike, but the definition includes, Paragliding, diving, sailing etc., - not sure if camel riding is included! So again, be aware of how any excursion you buy falls within your insurance.

Do you still have the cover note? If so it may be worth contacting the Insurance Ombusman once you have completed the Complaints Procedure with the insurance company.

The onus is on the purchaser to read the policy wording to ensure that it covers their needs. However if they have it in large writing that everything is covered them the Ombudsman may be interested.

Which insurance company was it out of interest?

luci

Hi Luci, - thanks for your reply. When I read it I did actually trawl through my 8 inch file on TUI and find the original cover note. It is from a well known, reputable company, and consists of a three page cover note, “Worldwide, All risks excluding skiing”. It lists the medical information I supplied and the lengths of stays covered on the annual policy.

However, right at the bottom, in the usual small type, it states “Please ensure that you familiarise yourself with the policy terms and conditions which can be downloaded on our website”.

Absolutely my own fault. I didn’t see that, I just flicked through the policy and assumed I was covered. The actual T & C’s are no longer on their website, but I did check them when I returned to the UK and it did, (amongst millions of other exclusions, exclude activity sports).

In retrospect, had the T & C’s actually been included with the cover note, I might have had a read through them and thought twice about partaking in quad biking in the first place. I am not trying to make excuses for myself. The insurance company did have the information available, albeit, tucked away on their website.

However, I’m just an average idiot, I try not to put myself in a position of being scammed or conned, by generally dealing with reputable companies even if it costs a bit more and never really had any difficulties before. What really annoys me is that terms and conditions are being used by big companies, (and I don’t just refer to TUI or the insurance company), so extensively and they are so wordy that anyone can get out of just about everything and anything.

The problems arise because companies selling whatever, often use sales people who verbally make statements to encourage you to buy, but are in fact excluded in the small print. I really think the legislation in this area needs to tightened. I know it’s my own responsibility to check the small print on anything, and will certainly do so in future, but sometimes we’re talking about pages and pages of legalise, and they rely on people not bothering to wade through it all. I really think when I get over my battle with TUI, I’m going to join or start a campaign to get companies to limit their T & C’s to 10 in total, and make them use bullet points IN LARGE PRINT!!!

Unfortunately, I am of an age and from an era when people shook hands on deals and you didn’t have to beat companies over the head to get them to honour their commitments and responsibilities. About time I moved into the 21st century!!!

Just would like to send out a general thank you to all the posters for their useful comments. In particular I’ve had some PM’s and emails from some folks with some very useful information, - which I can’t really discuss on the open forum, - but you know who you are and thank you so much.

I will keep an eye on the post and l will let you guys know how it develops. Which is either going to be a Court case, or failing that, I intend to set up a website with all the copious correspondence with TUI and their solicitors, my dental and medical reports and photographs of my injuries. If nothing else, it will publicise how this company deals with its customers.