http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=57959

Have a look at this link here there is some information on Ros Fernihough -Travel Law Solicitor.

Sarah

Thank you Sarah.
We did rather feel that the time might have arrived for legal advice, but its helpful to get feedback from other people.
We would be interested to hear the views of other disgruntled First Choice customers, particularly if they have had problems with FC Star Class Permier services.
Thanks
Lindsay

If you are heading down the legal advice side of things, then you will be hard pressed to beat Ros. We have lots of members of HT who have used her and come back to sing her praises. She will guide you in the right direction.

Sarah

Does your paperwork say you paid £438 for the premier flight upgrade and £200 flight supplement separately?

If I'm reading this correctly FC are saying that you paid £200 in flight supplements just to fly from Glasgow? ie £100 per person (£50pp for each leg of the journey.) Therefore on your return leg you still had to pay £100 for the Glasgow flight supplement????

Our invoice from FC shows two entries - one for the flight upgrades - £438 -£219 each and another entry under "Flight adjustment" for -(minus)£200- £100 each. From the letters from FC, we assume that this refers to the Glasgow supplement, but this is not stated on the invoice. What we think they are doing, is that this flight adjustment is being subtracted from the flight upgrade cost, in order to avoid paying the remainder of the £438. The way the invoice is put together is clever - listing the flight adjustment under the upgrade flight cost to look like the upgrade is cheaper than the price quoted.

The devil will be in the detail LGW33 (the missing 33 is the upgrade cost ).

How about finding out what the Star Class Premier upgrade cost is, say, from Manchester and from Gatwick. You'd then have a comparison to work with.

It's hard to fathom the intricate workings of the minds of the bean counters who manage companies such as FC. As you flew out on an aircraft that provided the facility I cannot see any technical reason why the same type of aircraft could not return you.

Clearly, the reason will be an operation one, and will be for the benefit of FC.

Wouldn't it be interesting if, when told of the poblem at Sanford, a group refused to fly until the facility was made available. Meanwhile, accommodation costs etc. to be met by FC.

I wish you good luck in this matter and would highly recommend Ros. She acted for me in 2005 and was successful in my claim for a refund for loss of facility against TCD re. holiday in Orlando.

Do let us know the outcome though.

Mike

I agree with Mike, find out what an upgrade cost is from an airport without a supplement ( LGW is usually the obvious one ), but bear in mind that this may well show that the GLA flight supplement is included in your aviation cost. First Choice were quick to inform you of the problem and offer the refund for the upgrade that you didnt get. I accpet it maybe confusing on the upgrade cost but I think they are probably not being tricky in this case, £120 round trip cost sounds about right for the upgraded service. What have others paid for a similar service with First Choice maybe this will help establish the cost.

Mike an operational problem is never of benefit to an airline as the costs just start mounting. Passenger welfare, engineering,maintenance, programme knock on delays,crews going out of hours so crews paid that dont fly. Different airlines handle these situations better than others but believe me they would like their aircraft running like clockwork all the time. You often mention that another aircraft should be freely available sadly the sheer cost of aircraft doesnt allow for airlines to have spare aircraft sitting around doing nothing in case of delays. Unless of course we all want to pay double for ou air fares.

Kind Regards
Stewart

I accept your point Stewart re. having a spare plane sat about - and the cost being prohibitive.

I do wonder though why the original type of aircraft was not used for the return service - that clarity of admission is hardly ever forthcoming from any carrier. £120 round trip upgrade also sounds reasonable to me as well.

Have any of us ever thought about the justification of lifght supplements ?

Flying Gatwick to Sanford is very likely to route close to Glasgow. The distance from Glasgow to Sanford is slightly less than Gatwick-Sanford. Presumably, operation costs at Gatwick/Glasgow are similar - so why a supplement ? Can it be justified as a cost ? Shouldn't such supplements be expected to reflect true cost increases (as bank charges should - by law) rather than be a method of increasing profit at the expense of passengers flying from airports other than near London ?

Mike
your comments about flight supplements from most airports other than Gatwick:

Shouldn't such supplements be expected to reflect true cost increases (as bank charges should - by law) rather than be a method of increasing profit at the expense of passengers flying from airports other than near London ?

Absolutely spot-on!

By law, any charges that banks levy on their customers must be proportional to the actual costs they incur.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all start recovering the sometimes extortionate flight supplements that some airlines appear to charge on the basis that it actually costs around the same to fly from say Glasgow as it does from Gatwick (assuming similar operational costs).

Polly

PS Mike: I think the advice you give seems to be always good and comprehensive.

Re the above points with regard to using different airports and what if any might a relevant supplement be, are dependent on more than just the flight costs. BAA has a virtual monopoly in Scotland running 3 out of the 4 airports that have runways long enough for the planes used on longhaul flights and it has long been a complaint of operators and consumers that the charges they make for use of the terminal facilities and landing charges etc are too high compared to prices elsewhere. Prestwick of course can and does undercut them but most passengers, especially those who don't live in the greater Glasgow area, regard it as the least convenient one to use.

I'm not sure if many passengers realise that airlines are even charged 'rent' on their check-in desks by BAA. One of the reasons why BA flights tend to be more expensive is because they rent more check-in desks and have shorter queues. Similarly, anybody using eg Cubana flights to Havana from Gatwick knows that the check-in queues are enormous, snaking round and round south terminal and this is because they only rent 2 check-in desks in order to keep their scheduled fares down as low as possible - they know we'll never be tempted to use them on the grounds of their excellent cabin service!

So regional supplements reflect more than just the cost of the actual flight based on fuel and crew wages etc but how much the relative costs for ground crew and terminal services cost too. This is one reason why Ryanair uses such obscure airports - it costs them less all round to use such airports compared to the bigger ones.

SM

As ever, good information SMa. I can see that airport fees would afect matters. (Too) many years ago I was part of the small software team developing Dan Air's flight scheduling system. Way back then I remember the restrictions and costs involved in landing an taking-off, and these would vary depending upon the airport.

So, how about some clarity. I once challenged Manchester Airport over costs that BA tried to levy some time back (and before the twin towers). It transpired that one was a "security" fee, another a "use of facilities" fee. When I contacted M/cr airport they explained that carriers ARE charged for these elements and build such costs into their flight charges.

BA were trying to pull a fast one and were caught out on that occasion.

If each carrier itemised the charges the airport levied upon them on our invoices we, the travelling public would be able to see who was charging most, and who the least. BAA, now owned by Ferrovial, run the following:

London Heathrow
London Gatwick
London Stansted
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Aberdeen
Southampton
Naples
Budapest

So costs at the Scottish airports should be similar to those at Gatwick. I'd probably assume costs are higher at Gatwick due to the expense of real-estate in that part of the world, and salaries. Then, economies of scale might reduce the per-pax cost compared to less busy provincial airports.

But that's the problem here. We Don't know.

3 years or so ago I wrote to the Chief Financial Office at Manchester Airport to ask where their profits appear in the council budgets. Manchester is owned by a consortia of local councils, including Bolton where I live. They did not extend me the courtesy of a reply.

Obfuscation is the friend of profit hungry organisations. Clarity is OUR friend.

The flight supplements from Scottish Airports can be extremely high. In fact we live near Aberdeen so ABZ is our local airport which currently, due to the short runway, offers a limited number of destinations.

For us it has worked out cheaper to book our holidays from Gatwick and arrange our local domestic flights from ABZ to LGW. We have done this a few times when we have travelled to Austria, Italy. This year we are going to Slovenia and Croatia and have booked from LGW and will arrange our own domestics and overnight.

When I used to work as a Travel Agent I was horrified at the flight supplements from Glasgow in the school holidays. I can even remember seeing over £1000 alone in just Glasgow flight supplements for a family of 4, and we are not talking long haul neither!!

Sugarbabe,
watch out for the increase in APD. Stopping overnight roules out the possibility of a connecting flight. You will therefore be charged APD on a flight from Aberdeen to Gatwick and again from Gatwick to wherever. If there's a gap of about 6 or less hurs between the arrival at LGW and the following departure the flight from Aberdeen is considered a connector and not charged APD.

At £20 a pop this has a bigger effect.

Thanks Mike, I didn't realise that. For this years holiday we didn't have any choice but to fly from LGW as we are flying to Ljubliana.

Problem is Aberdeen being so limited with choice of destinations then Glasgow is our nearest, however you have to consider the 2.5 hours drive there and back before and after your holiday.

Mike
its not always the case that you are charged more if you stay in London overnight. We booked from Edinburgh via LGW to Florida with BA. We were getting the connecting flight free. They wanted to put us on a flight from EDI to LGW at daft oclock in the morning to connect with a US flight at about 11.00. We rang and asked if we could get the last flight down in the evening and they agreed with no problem.

Bridd,
thanks for correcting me. Apologies to all as my research was a bit sloppy on this one.

I've looked again at the Air Passenger Duty details via this link:

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_InfoGuides&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000505#P202_12236

and I was incorrectly reading the rules about returning to the UK from abroad rather than departing from the UK. When returning from an international location, your onward UK domestic flight needs to depart within 6 hours of arrival of your first inbound international flight. However, if the first int. flight arrives between 17:00 and midnight you can depart on your second domestic flight upto 10:00am the following day and still be considered connected.

Bridd was correct (thanks) as the outbound international flight need only depart withing 24 hours of the arrival of the first domestic leg in order to be considered connected.

Interestingly, note this little snippet I found in these rules: Crown Copyright Acknowledged -

If the first flight of a connected journey is made on a non chargeable aircraft, then the whole journey is exempt from APD.

Also from that same site:

2.3 What is a chargeable aircraft?
All aircraft (including helicopters) which are designed or adapted to carry persons in addition to the flight crew are chargeable - with the exception of the following:

Type of aircraft

Description


Small aircraft.

Where an aircraft is certificated as having an authorised take off weight of less than ten tonnes or fewer than twenty seats for the passengers, then it is exempt from the duty.


Private aircraft

If you operate private aircraft these flights are not normally liable to duty unless the passengers pay for their carriage. Most private aircraft are, in any event, exempt because they satisfy the definition of "small aircraft". If however you operate private aircraft (including helicopters) which do not fall within the definition of small aircraft and you charge passengers for their carriage you must register and account for APD.

So, to avoid APD I could start my journey flying, say, from Blackpool in a small aircraft, flying to Manchester. Then board my international flight to New York and be exempt, provided I departed within 24 hours of arriving at Manchester.

So, providing a celebrity takes off in a lightweight helicopter from his estate in, say, Cheshire, lands at Manchester then departs First Class for the flight to New York.......he/she pays no APD.

And you thought this was a GREEN tax. No, no, no, it's a BROWN levy, but not on the hoi poloi, many of whom might be political party donors.
Take this one step further. Blair flies by private helicopter from Chequers to Heathrow, boards a BA flight, first-class, bound for Miami and PAYS NO APD.

Here ends Friday's political rant

Interesting point Mike, but how much would Blair (theoretically) or a celebrity pay to land their private aircraft at an airport? Perhaps more than the APD - who knows.

Mark

Good point Mark, but what if BA, say, or Virgin have a contract to collect said pax from their place via private helicopter and book the whole flight routing. The airline would take the hit for the modest cost of helicopter landing fees by securing a first-class transatlantic flight. The punter gets the freebie pick-up and saves £80 (after Feb 1st) EACH WAY if they pull a similar return ferry stunt.

I merely raise the possibility such things might happen

Hmm.... me writes to Richard Branson to suggest this
Mark