andy66 wrote:

Hi Doe , we flew to Mahon from LCY , it's a Embraer 190 with 2-2 seating , really good flight .
We flew on a Saturday and arrived very early , in fact the airport was not really open ! There is a place to have a drink and I think the checkin opened at the most 90 mins before departure probably not even that early .
Once we checked in the security was fairly quick and I remember not being in the lounge that long .
I wouldn't really get there very early , you get processed through the airport very quickly , it's just taking into account the time to get to the airport .

Enjoy take off and the views over London if its not too cloudy .

Andy does that mean that even if you are not in the CE section at the front, you are still in a 2-2 seating, just that the leg room and food would be different ?

Last year Gatwick to Alicante it was 2-2 at the front, with a weird pretend seat in between that no one uses, but up the back it was 3-3, I guess that is a different plane (apologies plane configarations are not my strong point ) ?

If we flew LCY to Palma would that also be 2-2 on the whole plane, I know we wouldn't get a cooked breakfast if we were economy (WT?) rather than CE but that is not a biggie for us and 2-2 even in WT would be good?

2-2 The whole plane, I've flown on it a couple of times from Germany.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/British_Airways/British_Airways_Embraer_190_B.php

http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/about-ba/fleet-facts/embraer-190

The above link gives details of the Embraer 190 , this would be the plane you would fly on if departing from LCY ( London City ) as the airport is really a STOL port ( short take off or landing ) that's why I said " enjoy take off " You will see what I mean when you see the runway !!! But don't worry , it's amazing .
We didn't book CE on this flight , not really worth it ! Food and service in ET was fine and legroom fine for the 2 hour flight .
The plane you were on at LGW was probably a A319 , the " middle seats ". B and E are not used in the CE cabin and there is a movable curtain that separates the 2 cabins .

The only " big " plane at LCY is the A318 which flys to JFK and achieves this by having a re fuel at Shannon ( so very little fuel on take off at LCY ) and carries out pre immigration as an extra so you arrive as a domestic passenger at JFK which can save time , and of course you travel there in comfort

andy66 wrote:

http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/about-ba/fleet-facts/embraer-190

The above link gives details of the Embraer 190 , this would be the plane you would fly on if departing from LCY ( London City ) as the airport is really a STOL port ( short take off or landing ) that's why I said " enjoy take off " You will see what I mean when you see the runway !!! But don't worry , it's amazing .
We didn't book CE on this flight , not really worth it ! Food and service in ET was fine and legroom fine for the 2 hour flight .
The plane you were on at LGW was probably a A319 , the " middle seats ". B and E are not used in the CE cabin and there is a movable curtain that separates the 2 cabins .

The only " big " plane at LCY is the A318 which flys to JFK and achieves this by having a re fuel at Shannon ( so very little fuel on take off at LCY ) and carries out pre immigration as an extra so you arrive as a domestic passenger at JFK which can save time , and of course you travel there in comfort ;)

Thanks for the info Andy, might book ET from LCY to Palma next year then as less miles and less dosh and no availability in CE for my dates at present although I guess it could open up in the future. Ideal would be CE out and ET back, as a compromise, but no lounge at LCY to enjoy makes CE less of a deal.

I personally wouldn't use a lot of AVIOS or money for a CE flight from LCY , as you say not even a lounge , but the departure lounge at LCY is very nice anyway , even check in there is easy and not too long waiting , so you only get a curtained off private area and slightly better food option . I've only booked CE from LGW to make sure we both earn enough tier points to get to silver ,

Indeed use avios only for longer CE to tak full advantage. if booked in economy can always keep eye on the booking and see if up grades become available at a cheaper rate. quite often this happens.

nivsy wrote:

Indeed use avios only for longer CE to tak full advantage. if booked in economy can always keep eye on the booking and see if up grades become available at a cheaper rate. quite often this happens.

Thanks Nivsy, I kind of know this but due to person circumstance it's very difficult to travel long haul at present and I want to use them on something. At some point I suspect there will be a scheme devaluation due to the fact that people are sitting on millions of them so I don't like to hoard too many. Although people turn their nose up at CE/ET short haul it needs to be viewed in context, when you have recently sat in the middle seat in the last row on a 1.5 hour delayed Thomson flight with 64 kids on board many with lap belts CE/ET short haul can seem like the height of luxury.

Doe

I think it's best to use AVIOS for whatever suits each person , I do tend to save mine up and spend once a year with my Amex voucher , but at least with travel within Europe there does seem to be more availability than looking for long haul redemptions or upgrades .
I perfectly understand your logic there Doe !!

The cost of the tax is the main outlay and therefore you dont get any significant value on flying european routes especially in CE cabins by spending avios and less so if in economy. Less mile for your pound. Amex vouchers are fine but naturally can only fly BA metal with the 2 for 1 that I go for and while have used this a few times certainly need to be flexible as availability can be limited on "decent" destinations.

I can confirm that I had the same amount of legroom on my inbound easyJet flight, as I did on my outbound BA flight. The distance between my knees and the seat in front, with me sitting upright and right back in my seat, was 15cm. Yes, I have short legs.

nivsy wrote:

The cost of the tax is the main outlay and therefore you dont get any significant value on flying european routes especially in CE cabins by spending avios and less so if in economy. Less mile for your pound. Amex vouchers are fine but naturally can only fly BA metal with the 2 for 1 that I go for and while have used this a few times certainly need to be flexible as availability can be limited on "decent" destinations.

I must be getting confused as I thought the only tax you pay on short haul is £35 for a return in ET and £50 for a return in CE; perhaps I am missing the point though in your mention of value per mile is the fact that they are short hops that make them poor value ax the actual tax paid seems Ok to me for what I am getting.

Doe

Hi Doe , the flights you buy are reward flight saver , and as you say represent good value , but if you look at how many AVIOS you are using compared to the normal cost of the flight that gives you a value of how much each AVIOS is worth , whilst if you use perhaps even more AVIOS for an upgrade to CW for instance the value of each AVIOS would work out more because the upgrade cost would cost you quite a lot in sterling , I'll try to explain better with some examples when I'm more awake !!! Just got in from our flight back from Lanzarote , we had a plane change and came back on a 737 instead of an A320 , didn't have enough " performance " to take off with a full load plus fuel back to LGW , so enough fuel was put on for us to fly 20 mins to fuerteventura , ( had to be my shortest CE flight , wondered if I will get more AVIOS and tier points , will it appear on " My Flightpath " Anyway all went well but got back about 80 mins late !! At least it meant having champagne and a nice meal while enjoying the splendid sunset view , just one of the pitfalls of CE

Pippy , the seat pitch on easyjet 319 is 29 inches , the BA 319s have 2 configurations the LHR ones have 31 inches , the LGW ones have 30 inches
Seating capacities are EJ 156 seats , LHR 132 seats and LGW 144 seats , I think Nivsy was referring to the LHR models having more noticeable legroom , to be fair the LGW planes and EJ planes have little difference in legroom , but seat thickness probably plays a part too .
There is some formula where you have to measure from a point on one seat to the same point on the next seat to find the " true " pitch , but seat thickness is starting to play a part now in how much usable legroom you get .
BA are going to refit their short haul fleet with new seats , and they will get more seats on the plane too ..

Oh, yeah, it wasn't a scientific method of measuring. I just use the measure on one of the pages of my diary It's sufficient to show me how much space I personally have between my knees and the seat in front though. Yes, of course, the easyJet seats are thinner than the BA seats, that's a given

Pippy , I don't disagree with your original point , it's all about what we perceive we are getting , and short haul Europe is very competitive with efficient operators like EJ .

Doe, there are many threads about AVIOS if you google " best use of AVIOS " but you do end up with a lot of advice from particular perspectives , like American use or having certain credit cards , usually on flyertalk there is a lot of " in depth " advice , some helpful , some boggling !!! I've found a way to get best use that suits me , it's easier if you find a way that suits you best , otherwise you spend tooooo much time searching and get sooooo confused !

I like to look at AVIOS like being worth 1p
So 100 is worth £1
1000 = £10
10,000 = £100
100,000= £1000
So can you make them worth more than 1p ?
I looked at a reward flight saver from LCY to PMI. On 07/06/15 returning on 14/06/15 , available for 15,000 AVIOS plus 35 flat fee , so 15,000 AVIOS is £150 , you can buy currently a cash flight for £184 .
So using AVIOS in this case means they do value them at 1p

I saved up all my AVIOS last year and using my Amex 2-4-1 bought a First flight to DXB , it cost me 120,000 AVIOS , so would equal £1200 if they were worth 1p and a First flight costs more than £1200 ! If I had booked CW it would be 80,000 AVIOS and a business flight there would cost more than £800 .

A good use is also buying WTP and upgrading to CW , once again if it suits you , and another good value is getting reward flight saver to zone 3 destinations that cost 20,000 AVIOS + 35 , but try finding them !! CE means doubling the AVIOS amount plus £50 .

It really does depend on how many you collect , how frequently you fly to collect more , everyone has their own preferences , if I wasn't really that interested in collecting more and just transferring tesco points , I would have about 30,000 a year and that would buy me 2 flights to PMI for only £35 for doing really nothing different .

Andy...you are far better than me in explaining the avios system!!.....best example i can come away with recently - i upgraded WT+ to Club World - 15,000 avios, not bad for a 13 hour flight overnight in upperdeck flatbed. For me, that is good use.

Hating the refurb programme. Missing the 737 ex LGW already!

Phew. Thanks for the explanation guys. I'm not all that scientific about it, it was more intuitive.

My gut feeling was that 30,000 miles plus £70 for two people from LCY to PMI in ET was an OK deal, but 60,000 plus £100 for CE was a bit steep ! However I didn't think to check the cost of either flights on the British Airways main site, so am now not sure on value for money.

But as you say a lot is down to how you collect the miles and if you can/can't do long haul etc.

Sound like a great deal Nivsy , hopefully that will be me some day. DH fancies St Lucia sometime so if I can squeak 10 days away at some point I might go for it as British Airways fly there and I am determined to have a go in a flatbed eventually !

Doe

Nivsy , I don't profess to understand it , I think it can be complicated and its best to present examples and how you can get them and whether they are easy to get
Your own example shows great value especially as the cost difference would be quite a lot , that's a lot of seat for your outlay !!!
We flew back on G-DOCO last night , and it positioned up at gate 55 , so must be doing a domestic today . It actually looked in good nick and was a quiet flight back , had 2 A&C so nice legroom and handy pull down cocktail table

Doe , I hope it helps you , I think that the ET deal is ok , but with the CE deal you could do a lot more with 60,000 AVIOS .
BA flies to St Lucia from LGW , it's called Hewanorra , airport code UVF , BA 2159 and 2158 back , I've flown it twice !! both on WTP upgraded to CW , costs 25,000 avios per person rtn and the WTP cost was £2100 for 2 .
The CW price would be around £2400 per person , the best sale price is £1600 per person , so the 50,000 AVIOS would save you at least £1100 , if not £2700 at full price .
Daytime flight out , lovely service , very relaxing and arrive at 3pm local time , return flight is overnight , arrive back 6.30am at LGW , lovely lounge to use at Hewanorra , very good meal service and then off to sleep !
BA do holiday packages there and it's worth looking at their prices when they have " club world holiday " sales
You have to fish around for the upgrade availability , but I've managed it twice , I went in March both times which is quite an expensive time of year hotel wise , you usually find great prices for around may / June time
and the weather is good too ( not hurricane season ) !!
If you stay at a hotel the other end of the island near Castries then there is a small airport there so you can even get a helicopter transfer and view the island http://www.stluciahelicopters.com Apparently the roads are very bumpy

Doe
Its worth saving the airmiles for a go at CW or First. Our first First was to Cape Town four years ago. We used our Amex 241 and airmiles. Our flight price for First would have been £9800
It's a great experience but I can't imagine actually paying that price!

oh Fiona, and I thought you would have £9,800 in your piggy bank!!!