It appears that the big difference is between chartered and scheduled operators.
From what I have read and heard, scheduled airlines appear to treat you as a person. Chartered airlines see you as a £ sign.
Many people plan and book holidays well in advance, and if you are told a few weeks before travel of any changes, you have an option. Cancel your much dreamed of holiday and hope you can book something else at late notice. Or put up with it. Most people have a limited amount of holiday, and some have certain dates they can book. Sometimes flights from the big airports involve flights from smaller airports, or coach bookings to get to. These also need rescheduling. Sometimes flight time changes mean that to catch an early flight, or to arrive too late to expect someone to pick you up, ends up with an overnight stay in a hotel being needed.
I think the airlines don't see beyond the "we've only moved you three hours" or "we've only moved you two days" and don't take into consideration all the extra things you may have to do to meet the new times.
I once had a Monarch flight booked to Benidorm, and despite living close to Luton Airport, chose to book the Gatwick flight as the times were better. I later received a letter pushing the flight times back by about 10 hours, meaning leaving Gatwick late at night and getting back into Gatwick at stupid o'clock in the morning. I didn't find this acceptable, although, I have to say, fair play to Monarch, when I phoned and expained, the transferred me onto the Luton flight. But I only got, because I thought to ask.
Should it be all one class,it was for years it was the Charter Airlines that decided on a Premium cabin and pushed it in all the brochures and we bought it,however to change an aircraft for none Tech reason when the Tour Operator has sold holidays on the back of Premium Service is in my opinion a breach of contract.It should be tested in court.
If they made it all one class with 34in legroom it would be much better,that goes for long and short haul.
If they made it all one class with 34in legroom it would be much better,that goes for long and short haul.
34 inch all economy ? So we are all happy to pay more for our holidays to achieve this ? I think the answer to that is no.
Scheduled Airlines treat you like a customer Charters dont. Not flown with Ryanair,Easyjet or an American scheduled carrier then or perhaps been in Virgin economy. My last flight with BA i was given a cereal bar and a tub of water for my meal. A scheduled carrrier can just cancel a flight when it feels like.
Charter Airlines and tour operators have been responsible for bringing low cost holidays that years ago you couldnt possibly have dreamed about i.e. mexico, the carribean, florida, let alone Spain and the Greek Islands when these were only possible for the rich.
They do not get it right all the time but the vast majority of the time they do. Charter Airlines/Tour Operators have their failings and need to beef up their customer services but to just say Scheduled Airlines good Charter Airlines bad is doing them a disservice. Maybe we can all pay £3000 business class flights and then we know the service is good.
Mark if Thomson had changed the aircraft both ways and there was no Premium seating would you have gone on the holiday if the offer of a refund was there ? Before charters introduced premium seating did you fly business class ? I sympathise with your annoyance that you didnt get the service you paid extra for and it seems like the tour operator could have handled things better but like a delay these things happen with scheduled and charter carriers.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Scheduled Airlines treat you like a customer Charters dont. Not flown with Ryanair,Easyjet or an American scheduled carrier then or perhaps been in Virgin economy. My last flight with BA i was given a cereal bar and a tub of water for my meal. A scheduled carrrier can just cancel a flight when it feels like.
Charter Airlines and tour operators have been responsible for bringing low cost holidays that years ago you couldnt possibly have dreamed about i.e. mexico, the carribean, florida, let alone Spain and the Greek Islands when these were only possible for the rich.
They do not get it right all the time but the vast majority of the time they do. Charter Airlines/Tour Operators have their failings and need to beef up their customer services but to just say Scheduled Airlines good Charter Airlines bad is doing them a disservice. Maybe we can all pay £3000 business class flights and then we know the service is good.
Mark if Thomson had changed the aircraft both ways and there was no Premium seating would you have gone on the holiday if the offer of a refund was there ? Before charters introduced premium seating did you fly business class ? I sympathise with your annoyance that you didnt get the service you paid extra for and it seems like the tour operator could have handled things better but like a delay these things happen with scheduled and charter carriers.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Interesting topic, just to put my experience in, we recently flew to montego bay with thomas cook, about 9 and a half hours flight, and my little girl was getting all excited about the prospect of her own telly in the back of the seat and being able to play games, ( she's used to flying jet2 with no entertainment ) not so, we boarded the plane and our hearts sank, now not up on types of aircrafts, but it was a 2-4-2 configuration, so her dad had to sit accross the isle which she wasn't happy about and the telly's were the overhead drop down ones, she could barely see.
I know they say they have the right to use different aircrafts, but this always going to be our plane when I looked closely at the tickets.
On the plus side we got the 'proper plane' as my daughter put it on the return journey.
just a niggle.
cheers,
juby
I know they say they have the right to use different aircrafts, but this always going to be our plane when I looked closely at the tickets.
On the plus side we got the 'proper plane' as my daughter put it on the return journey.
just a niggle.
cheers,
juby
I have just read on another forum about the flights to Cape Verde where the pax outbound from Manchester were on a "scruffy ex First Choice 757" and as this went tech they came home on a 767 with seatback IFE "normally used for Gatwick" the question asked is how can Thomson Holidays justify a sardine can from Manchester for 6hr flight and a 767 from Gatwick for the same holiday.Thomson Platinum.
How about not enough customers to fill a Boeing 767 from MAN
Why is a 757 a sardine can when a 767 is not when the seat pitch is the same ( except in premium economy ).
A 757 is a commonly used aircarft for the canaries and the cape verde islands including from Gatwick.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Why is a 757 a sardine can when a 767 is not when the seat pitch is the same ( except in premium economy ).
A 757 is a commonly used aircarft for the canaries and the cape verde islands including from Gatwick.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Steward,
To answer your question. At least I would have been given a choice - something that I didn't have when we were downgraded.
Yes, scheduled airlines do cancel flights (though usually not for course or just for the sake of it) but they will make arrangements to fly you out on different airlines (perhaps via a longer way) with compensation offered and not to be asked for - especially for their premium customers.
My real gripe is with their Ts and Cs. Why haven't they included this in it? Why not on the top of these fancy brochure pages inviting you to upgrade something in big letters like "in the event that we change an aircraft the upgraded cabin may not be available in case we will be limited to a refund of the fee for such upgrade only".
You are paying for a service. You expect that service to be there (even more so as this is one of the very few industries where you pay for something in full upfront!) unless unforeseen circumstances prohibit this. And with "unforeseen" I don't see how changing flights for their commercial benefit is one of these circumstances. It is too much a get out clause and liable to them just doing as they please. A contract is a contract after all!
Mark
To answer your question. At least I would have been given a choice - something that I didn't have when we were downgraded.
Yes, scheduled airlines do cancel flights (though usually not for course or just for the sake of it) but they will make arrangements to fly you out on different airlines (perhaps via a longer way) with compensation offered and not to be asked for - especially for their premium customers.
My real gripe is with their Ts and Cs. Why haven't they included this in it? Why not on the top of these fancy brochure pages inviting you to upgrade something in big letters like "in the event that we change an aircraft the upgraded cabin may not be available in case we will be limited to a refund of the fee for such upgrade only".
You are paying for a service. You expect that service to be there (even more so as this is one of the very few industries where you pay for something in full upfront!) unless unforeseen circumstances prohibit this. And with "unforeseen" I don't see how changing flights for their commercial benefit is one of these circumstances. It is too much a get out clause and liable to them just doing as they please. A contract is a contract after all!
Mark
Stewart,
How do you know there were not enough passengers to fill a 767 from Manchester,and the reason the 767 is not as much a sardine can as a 757 is the configuration 2-4-2 against 3-3, again you have missed the point both sets of pasengers pay the same price for the holiday why are they not treated the same.
As Mark points out to change the aircraft for commercial benefit is a underhanded way of doing business to say the least,when you pay for a service you expect to get it but not in the package holiday industry,case of "you pay your money and take your chance".
To the tour operators once they have your money you are a number on a computer screen gone are the day of customer service and it applies right across the package holiday industry.
How do you know there were not enough passengers to fill a 767 from Manchester,and the reason the 767 is not as much a sardine can as a 757 is the configuration 2-4-2 against 3-3, again you have missed the point both sets of pasengers pay the same price for the holiday why are they not treated the same.
As Mark points out to change the aircraft for commercial benefit is a underhanded way of doing business to say the least,when you pay for a service you expect to get it but not in the package holiday industry,case of "you pay your money and take your chance".
To the tour operators once they have your money you are a number on a computer screen gone are the day of customer service and it applies right across the package holiday industry.
I dont and nor do you, you asked why it may happen. If they had enough passengers to fill a B767 they wouldnt have used a B757 with 100 less seats on it.
Does the 767 normally fly on the Cape Verde route ? No I dont think so, it was brought in as a replacement for a techical problem On this occasion the pasengers got more than normal but still complaints.
2-4-2, 3-3 seat pitch is the same cant really see much difference.
Why do people use tour operators if they are so bad. Cape Verde a new destination ( not one for me just yet but thats my choice ), who brought this new alternative destination to the market? Oh thats right the tour operators and the charter airlines not scheduled carriers. Look at many of the other destinations we can go to because of tour operators and charter airlines that the scheduled carriers dont want to know about.
It looks like I am defending the charter airlines per se, I am not I have said several times there are issues with customer service etc but to just damn them all the time is not right either.
Mark
Charter Airlines do not just cancel flights just for the sake of it, in fact they cant cancel on the day like a scheduled carrier can, they have to get you to the destination even if witth a delay or bringing another aircraft in. Easyjet/Ryanair can just cancel and maybe get you on the next flight in the next day or two. Not all scheduled airlines operate like BA.
Thomsons terms and conditions do include a clause on seating.
We will not know if Thomson changed due to commercial or operational they may have had one of the aircraft out for an extended period of unforseen maintenace although more likely was adjusting the aircraft type to sales and you may have been unlucky.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Does the 767 normally fly on the Cape Verde route ? No I dont think so, it was brought in as a replacement for a techical problem On this occasion the pasengers got more than normal but still complaints.
2-4-2, 3-3 seat pitch is the same cant really see much difference.
Why do people use tour operators if they are so bad. Cape Verde a new destination ( not one for me just yet but thats my choice ), who brought this new alternative destination to the market? Oh thats right the tour operators and the charter airlines not scheduled carriers. Look at many of the other destinations we can go to because of tour operators and charter airlines that the scheduled carriers dont want to know about.
It looks like I am defending the charter airlines per se, I am not I have said several times there are issues with customer service etc but to just damn them all the time is not right either.
Mark
Charter Airlines do not just cancel flights just for the sake of it, in fact they cant cancel on the day like a scheduled carrier can, they have to get you to the destination even if witth a delay or bringing another aircraft in. Easyjet/Ryanair can just cancel and maybe get you on the next flight in the next day or two. Not all scheduled airlines operate like BA.
Thomsons terms and conditions do include a clause on seating.
We will not know if Thomson changed due to commercial or operational they may have had one of the aircraft out for an extended period of unforseen maintenace although more likely was adjusting the aircraft type to sales and you may have been unlucky.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Qatarman,
All passengers pay the same price for the same holiday why are they not treated the same.
Not true the passenegrs often pay quite different amounts for the holiday, often the last minute ones pay a lot less and the people who booked early much more but they dont get any different service.
Many aircraft fleets are getting standard and have the same in flight systems but their are occassions when they are different for different airports. This could be size of the market, runways etc. Probably only 15 years ago when there was no TV, games or anything on the flight. The charters airlines will say there first priority is to get you to your holiday destination all the other bits are extra benefits for them and for the customer.
Kind Regards
Stewart
All passengers pay the same price for the same holiday why are they not treated the same.
Not true the passenegrs often pay quite different amounts for the holiday, often the last minute ones pay a lot less and the people who booked early much more but they dont get any different service.
Many aircraft fleets are getting standard and have the same in flight systems but their are occassions when they are different for different airports. This could be size of the market, runways etc. Probably only 15 years ago when there was no TV, games or anything on the flight. The charters airlines will say there first priority is to get you to your holiday destination all the other bits are extra benefits for them and for the customer.
Kind Regards
Stewart
Stewart,
I have checked the Ts and Cs of both Thomson and First Choice and I can't see anywhere that because of a change of aircraft a premium cabin may not be available. All I can see is that a change of aircraft is not a major change.
Ts and Cs: http://www.thomson.co.uk/thomson/page/tandc/tandc.page?depDate=2009-05-01&accommInvSys=TPP&flightInvSys=TPP&lang=en
Thomsonfly Ts and Cs (which incidentally are not referred to in the Thomson package Ts and Cs) are here: http://flights.thomson.co.uk/en/terms_coc.html
These Thomsonfly Ts and Cs refer to a refund (see 5.3) incase a pre-assigned seat is not available. I understand that to be the service they provide where you pay £ 5.00 each way to select your seat.
However, what the Thomson package T's and C's say (see 6) is that they are fully responsible for providing each part of the holiday unless unforeseen circumstances don't allow that. One part of my holiday is the premium upgrade is it booked seperate and shown seperately on the invoice.
Whilst I have no legal background, logic and common sense here says that there is no direct link between booking a premium cabin and this cabin not being available on change of aircraft. The same logic and common sense says that the TO is contracted to provide such a premium cabin.
I would be interested to read where it clearly states that because of an aircraft change the paid for premium cabin becomes unavailable.
Mark
I have checked the Ts and Cs of both Thomson and First Choice and I can't see anywhere that because of a change of aircraft a premium cabin may not be available. All I can see is that a change of aircraft is not a major change.
Ts and Cs: http://www.thomson.co.uk/thomson/page/tandc/tandc.page?depDate=2009-05-01&accommInvSys=TPP&flightInvSys=TPP&lang=en
Thomsonfly Ts and Cs (which incidentally are not referred to in the Thomson package Ts and Cs) are here: http://flights.thomson.co.uk/en/terms_coc.html
These Thomsonfly Ts and Cs refer to a refund (see 5.3) incase a pre-assigned seat is not available. I understand that to be the service they provide where you pay £ 5.00 each way to select your seat.
However, what the Thomson package T's and C's say (see 6) is that they are fully responsible for providing each part of the holiday unless unforeseen circumstances don't allow that. One part of my holiday is the premium upgrade is it booked seperate and shown seperately on the invoice.
Whilst I have no legal background, logic and common sense here says that there is no direct link between booking a premium cabin and this cabin not being available on change of aircraft. The same logic and common sense says that the TO is contracted to provide such a premium cabin.
I would be interested to read where it clearly states that because of an aircraft change the paid for premium cabin becomes unavailable.
Mark
Hi Mark,
I was just wondering if you have got anywhere with your complaint to Thomsonfly,as reading on Skytrax it seems to be a well documented problem,paying for 34in legroom and only getting 32in (plane changed to First Choice)ect,Thomson have gone backwards since the takeover by TUI,I bet they dont treat their German customers the same.
I was just wondering if you have got anywhere with your complaint to Thomsonfly,as reading on Skytrax it seems to be a well documented problem,paying for 34in legroom and only getting 32in (plane changed to First Choice)ect,Thomson have gone backwards since the takeover by TUI,I bet they dont treat their German customers the same.
Hi Quatarman,
See this topic: http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=135246 for a full update on my claim against First Choice Holidays / Thomson / TUI.
You are probably right that our European cousins wouldn't accept this, and as I was born not that far from the German border (about 2,800 meters to be precise) they picked the wrong one
Mark
See this topic: http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=135246 for a full update on my claim against First Choice Holidays / Thomson / TUI.
You are probably right that our European cousins wouldn't accept this, and as I was born not that far from the German border (about 2,800 meters to be precise) they picked the wrong one
Mark
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