If I ordered a new car, and specified blue paintwork, and they said, "oh, we've given you a red one, but at the end of the day it's a car", would people accept it? But sometimes people choose to pay slightly more for a holiday to avoid a certain airline, and then get put on it anyway, and all the explanation is "well, we are getting you there", and this we have to accept!!

It usually DOES say something about this is the Terms and Conditions. Generally something like
"When a supplement has been paid for upgraded seating which is no longer available, refund will be limited to the supplement paid."
It's NOT like ordering a blue car and getting a red one. It's like paying a few quid extra for footmats and getting that money back when they haven't got any. Would you rather just not get a car?

I checked many of the T's and C's and such a clause I haven't found so far anywhere. Which airline/TO was that Colin?

It is like comparing it to a car. If you haven't paid for something and it isn't there you should be given the choice to cancel it. If the mats are not there you should be given the choice to reject the car with all monies refunded.

At the moment, with TOs taking away something you have paid for, you don't have the choice. You can't cancel and you just have to put up with it. Fair? Far from it in my opinion.

Again, if the change of aircraft happened because you are sat on an airplane that suddenly broke down and another had to be ferried in, you could understand it.

But, for some TO's to deliberately change aircraft for their commercial benefit. That is just plainly (no pun intended) wrong. Why should they get away with it?

Mark

Mark, fully agree. If you have to change aircraft for safety reasons, fair enough. Would you rather change planes or wait days for yours to be fixed?

But, I booked a TCX flight for December (booked last November) and specifically chose a TC holiday, for the flight, they then cancel the whole schedule of flights (could have flown from Manchester instead of Gatwick if I wanted) and put us on another airline, which I would not have voluntarily booked.

If I ordered a Ford Focus, would it be OK if they provided me with a Fiesta? No.

I can see both sides of the argument on this one, but really it comes down to operational need. An aircraft is normally scheduled to operate a flight many months in advance. For example charter schedules have just been released for summer 2010. Some flights are bound to have to change between now and then in terms of scheduling (times) and possibly even aircraft type if demand isn't there. Airlines / tour operators can't be expected run at a loss. When it comes to technical problems, these are often discovered during pre-flight checks maybe an hour or so before a flight. If it's a minor problem that local engineers can resolve, it might not cause any delay or just a minor one. If it's a bigger problem, a decision has to be made to either delay the flight until it's fixed, that will often cause knock-on effects to the schedule for the remainder of that week if it's a serious delay, or use an alternative aircraft is available. There was discussion on that a few weeks ago that most would prefer the use of an alternative aircraft under those circumstance.

When it come to a change of aircraft for commercial benefit, and I know where Mark is coming from on this, again the decision to change isn't done lightly and it's often not for commercial benefit, it's for operational need (you could argue it's one in the same but there are subtle differences). The reason Thomson are changing their long haul aircraft at the moment is due to such operational needs. This has resulted in odd flights having a lower number of premium seats. On some flights, it's meant a greater number of premium seats so it works both ways. While I can understand the frustration of losing your premium seating, it's refunded for the portion you don't take. The reason this has happened is due to swime flu and lower demand for some long haul flights and an increase in demand for some short haul destinations. Two aircraft that were originally assigned to long haul flights are in the process of being reconfiguered to operate short haul flights to cope with increased demand. This isn't commercial benefit as such, it's customer driven and has been deemed necassary to cover passengers wishes not to fly to places like Mexico. ie operational need not commercial benefit. Again, I can understand frustrations, but you can't expect the airline to send half empty aircraft to the Caribbean when they are needed to cover other flights. In Mober ones's case, I'm not sure why TCX have cancelled their Goa flights and put you on Monarch.

Their terms and conditions of booking covers them to change the aircraft as required. As we discussed on the other thread, it's often the communication and reasons for changes that aren't always given that often causes problems.

Darren

Not precisely the same issue as Mark has raised, but for anyone who may not have seen it, THIS is the other thread which Darren mentions where members discuss preferences between delay or correct aircraft type.

David

I'd take anything in a delay situation, but it is changes to a schedule/programme or airline at relatively short but advance notice that is the issue here

When they change an aircraft or even airline in advance but give you no option I would still consider this as constituting a major change. We were caught a year or so ago when XL subbed out flights to a third party and baggage allowance disappeared overnight by 10kg pp - a big deal for a party of divers!! Had specifically booked XL for this reason and favourable flight times. Got nowhere with a complaint so had to bite the bullet and pay the excess. Flight time also changed by around four hours which made the difference in travel home to the Midlands from Gatwick and cost us a further night in a hotel as a result. With ten weeks notice what can you do ??????? In a school holiday there is likely no alternative.

This is one of the major hassles of DIY or flight only trips but it seems to unfair that the airlines hold so much power in these circumstances

If I chose and paid for a a hotpoint washing machine and Currys supplied a LEC I's be unlikely to accept it!! The difference is the availalbility of an alternative should you walk-away and the airlines know it..................

Darren,

Whilst what you say does make some sense, why don't any of these brochures say that an aircraft change may result in a paid for and booked premium service not becoming available?

Why do these TO's dedicate full pages on their brochures marketing this premium service? Scheduled airlines make their profits on these premium customers. They pay extra money and that extra money covers more than the cost of providing that extra service.

Why in these extra dedicated pages of these brochures doesn't it state that by booking this service you may not be guaranteed to receive it?

Why do the T's and C's not mention any of this. To you who is an aviation expert a change of plane may logically mean a reduced number of premium seating but to the vast majority of customers it means that instead of a Mercedes a BMW will be sent to get you to the destination. And when you have booked a seat next to the driver (in the cars example) you're still sitting in the front so naturally a change of aircraft is going to mean the same.

Mark

As an aftertought:

I booked a first class ticket with British Airways.

A change of plane resulted in no first class being available.

Not only would BA refund me the difference in the airfare, without a shadow of a doubt I would be compensated by either a free upgrade next flight or 1,000's of miles in my mileage account.

Would the TO/Charter Airline do the same? Why should a refund of monies they had in their account for some time suffice?

Mark

Sorry to say its a marketing ploy,Thomsons did this with the Cape Verde flights then they changed to a 757-200 no Premium and 28inch seat pitch after selling holidays using Premium as a carrot,the problem is Mark we Brits stand for it,untill pax stop booking the upgrades they will get away with it in the small print.
Its the same with IFE they have the cheek to use 737-300s no IFE on flights of nearly 5hrs.but they dont tell you, so parents with kids have to try and keep them amused for the flight,I know replies will come back on the IFE but if one lot of customers dont get why should other customers get for the same price.
All it takes is a Please be aware flights from Xto Y could be by an X and no IFE is available. Simple but not to Tour Operators.
Sorry to go off subject with the IFE but to me these Tour Operators are a law to themselves.

It's NOT like ordering a blue car and getting a red one. It's like paying a few quid extra for footmats and getting that money back when they haven't got any. Would you rather just not get a car?

My mate went to buy a new car recently but when he was looking he asked about the stereo in the car (about a socket for the MP3 player and if it was on the rear or would an extra socket need fitting) and the salesman couldn't tell him. He told him the tech bloke was in Monday and if he left a deposit he would still get the deal of the day etc and would ring my mate by 9am Monday morning to give him the details. My mate made sure the deposit would be refunded etc if any of his criteria wasn't met and the salesman reluctantly agreed. Come 9am Monday morning the salesman hadn't rung, so at 9:30am my mate rang and was given excuses but told the stereo did indeed have the jack socket exactly as he wanted... but he still went around and got his money back and they lost a sale because they hadn't kept to their word of ringing him by 9am !! - Moral of this story... some people will bend over and put up with things and some won't !

Steve

I think there has been a few good points raised in this forum regarding customer expectations when they place into the hands of "expert" tour operators their hard earned cash.

That said, dealing with up to xx hundreds of people when things go wrong, such as aircraft breakdown or delay inevitably the "holiday atmosphere" can and does change. For many people the two weeks abroad per year is still the only trip by aeroplane that they undertake and they do not undertsand the logistics of airline operations. Frequent Flyers also often dont know or choose not to accept the logistics of airline operators.

That said, in my opinion:

Tour Companies should always give advance notice to customers of change of aircraft when this change is known...and passengers should not find out first about such changes through forums such as HT.
Tour operators should provide full details of possible route stop overs (technical/fuel stops) by whatever definition tour companies care to use. Some do provide detail but it amazes me in these forums how many people do not know that they may be stopping en route.

Passengers should accept that if a change of aircraft is needed due to technnical problems there can be a delay in sourcing a replacement - and that replacement could be from anywhere and provided by any operator who has a (fit for purpose) flying machine available. Seat configuration can be different to that originally specified and the object of the aircraft replacement will be to get you to destination as quickly as possible. Believe me - tour reps do not want 300 screaming passengers at say Palma airport when the temperture is +38!

In such event of an aircraft change tour operators should recognise that those who have paid for "up grades" (with the expectation of an enhanced service and comfort) should be compensated.

The choice of seat allocation for all passengers should be provided free of charge. The charging of booking seats through the internet is a money spinning operation for LCC and tour companies. Provides peace of mind at a cost - and most likely an operator will "reserve the right" to move you anyhow. Ironically in some occassions the cost of choosing your seat can be nearly the same as your air fare.

Nivsy

Nivsy,

I agree with most of what you say if an aircraft breaks down. We are in a situation then where due to unforeseen circumstances you may have to miss out on the upgrade.

However, I have experienced TO's deliberately changing aircraft (because of supply and demand) and missed out on the paid for upgrade. Yet this is not classified as a major change? It should be in my opinion.

The latter is just wrong. They're doing it for their own selfish good and don't appear to care about letting some of their customers down.

I still can't find in any of the T's and C's the relationship between a change of aircraft and the loss of premium seating. To most travellers a change of aircraft (so you're flying on a Boeing instead of an Airbus) doesn't mean they're not going to sit in the paid for premium cabin.

Perhaps it is time that the TOs include this in the Ts and Cs but that will most probably result in not that many premium bookings as it sometimes feels a bit like a lottery.

Mark

In the case of Thomson Airways,why dont they reconfigure their long haul aircraft so they ALL have the same number of Premium seats. And the same in standard class.

As an example - the Thomas Cook T&C/s state:

http://www.thomascookairlines.co.uk/terms_and_conditions.asp

With the emphasis being "the right" to change aircraft - and should they do that - deliberately - thereby exercising their right - and they cannot provide the seats that you have paid for - in your case - premier seats - then TC would offer a refund.

Nivsy

Quatar,

That would be the easiest solution to the problem.

Mark

Nivsy,

First Choice / Thomson has the same condition for when you pay for your seat too. A fee payable over and above the premium seating already purchased.

But that is another service I don't understand they introduced and will only lead to potential disappointment from customers. Why not let the customer choose their seat free of charge (like most scheduled airlines do) under the understanding that this is a free service and cannot be guaranteed due to a change of aircraft.

Mark

Darren has covered many of the reasons why tour operators will change aircraft.It is rarely in their interest to do so and are hardly gaining by having to refund premium paying customers.

Why dont Thomson Airways configure all aircraft the same. Eventually they probably will but this was a merger of 2 different airlines with different aircraft types the cost to be reconfigure the aircraft in the current climate is probably prohibitive. Also you may want different aircraft for different routes maybe Barbados has a higher uptake of premium customers compared to the Dominican republic.

Comparing to BA. The cost of the premium service is nothing like the cost of a BA business class ticket so it is hardly comparing like with like.

Originally the charter airlines were all one standard economy service, public demand lead many into introducing a premium service well below the cost of scheduled business class ( also accept the service is well below as well ). Many people have welcomed the opportunity to buy an upgraded service so satisfying public demand and allowing the airlines to increase revenues. This does of course lead to logisitcal problems if there are operation or commercial reasons for having to change aircraft. Would everybody be happy if they went back to standard economy, i think not. The vast majority of people who pay for the premium service get it but as always there will be problems sometimes ( the key here is how they deal with the problem ( in Marks case not very well )

why do aircraft change. Again the public want to see prices etc 18 months ahead, this you must agree the tour operators need a crystal ball to accurately predict prices and numbers, think of the variables they have to deal with. Currency,oil prices, the economy ( who predicted the current crash 18 months ago ), weather,disease,terrorism,civil unrest just to name a few. It is easy to see why they have terms and conditions loaded in their favour.

I am not trying to defend charter airlines carte blanche. They do need to address problems better when they arise, early communication is the key. I wonder if they had contacted Mark when the problem arose with a sensible explanation and the full refund if he would then have accepted the situation even if not happy about it.

Kind Regards
Stewart

Would everybody be happy if they went back to standard economy

It would stop the scenario where premium passengers are disappointed when their paid for service was decided to be withdrawn. You know when booking that economy is it. Your choice to go with that or find an alternative way to get your destination.

However, selling and very effectively marketing such a service without stating clearly that such a premium service may be changed at will and without good reason is not the way to treat your customers.

As I've mentioned - if this were to happen with BA, Virgin or any scheduled airline, not only would the difference in price be refunded, the customer would be compensated additionally without having to ask for it. Perhaps the scheduled airlines know how to treat their customers who are prepared to pay more for a service better.

Yes, I do appreciate that the margin of profit on a scheduled upgraded seat is higher than a charter upgraded seat but both sets of margins produce a profit. Both sets of customers increase the profititability of the Company. It is just that one set of Companies knows that upsetting these customers is not a good idea, whilst the other set of Companies couldn't care less.

Mark