I couldn't agree more. Of course if it's a first visit to a county it is unlikely visitors will have more than a very rudimentary knowledge of the language but it doesn't take long to pick up 'please' and 'thank you' and hand signals accompanied by a smile will usually get results (and often a great deal of laughter - as someone I saw trying to get medication for piles in a Tunisian chemist!!!) It should be a two-way transaction: the locals need our money and we need the services they supply but our money doesn't 'buy' the locals. Thank goodness the days of the 'natives' kowtowing to the foreigner are long gone. If we treat them with respect we will have good holidays and a smile and a chat are often just as welcome as a tip.

jimd-f wrote:

in this country we supposedly embrace multi-culturalism.
we want immigrants/visitors to fit into our society; to obey our laws, to work for a living and pay their way. we want to deport people who do not obey our laws.
yet, when we go abroad we think that everyone else should adapt to us and our ways.
this to me is the worst aspect of our tourists; we show no respect to our hosts.
maybe the ethics we should be concerned with is manners and respect.

You are talking about two completely different things.

A two week holday by Brits who go to Spain, Greece, Cuba etc is completely different to people who come here from Bangladesh, Poland, Nigeria etc and stay for 30 years, and have kids here, housing here and settle here.

Immigration is nothing to do with a weeks AI and is a totally spurious argument for us 'embracing the culture' of somewhere that we pay £3000 to go to to relax for a fortnight. We are not imigrating to these countries for goodness sake.

How exactly is your average AI client not obeying the law ?

Probably the 1 in 1,000 holiday maker who does end up in trouble with the law (normally a youngster who is D&D) is someone who is in a cheepo self catering gaff on an 18-30 holiday canning the alcohol in Falaraki or Aya Napa in a 'sky sports' bar. (OMG now I'm doing the stereotyping that this kind of thread encourages and I can't stand )

I would suggest that if these countries do not like AI establishments the onus should be on their Central Governments and Local Governments to not grant licences to them. But will they ? Of course not because they bring in loads of money and create employment.

I go AI and my decision to spend money outside the hotel/complex is for me to make. If someone decides not to go outside it is their business. What right have I to criticise?

I think this sums it all up very nicely. It's about personal choice isn't it , we all enjoy different holidays for different reasons, and enjoy doing different things. Thankfully we are all different and get our enjoyment in different ways. One does not necessarily mean it's right or wrong.

We can all sit in judgement on a forum and take the moral highground on various issues, but for me there is nowt wrong in me spending my hard earned cash on A/I holiday

I was really trying to move us on from just a for/against set of arguments about AI and I'm glad to see that this is happening. I'm not sure that the issues re holidays and long term settlement that have been raised in recent posts are really totally separate. For example, I wonder how many people who retire to Spain do so because they expect that what they have experienced on holiday will set the tone for what it will be like as a permanent resident? And then end up disappointed when they realise that many ordinary Spanish people who don't work in the tourist industry no more speak English than they speak Spanish? Is it this which has created the conditions which have given rise to developments in Spain which are populated almost exclusively by English speaking ex-pats?

And does whether we are temporary residents or longterm migrants really make a difference to what constitutes acceptable behaviour ? If I am temporary guest in someone's home or their country, then the onus on complying with their norms and values is greater rather than lesser for me.

but for me there is nowt wrong in me spending my hard earned cash on A/I holiday

And there is nowt wrong with me being concerned about how I spend my hard-earned cash too. It's clear that others don't share my perceptions about AI holidays but does that put me in the wrong because I don't share theirs? I'm not sure who is supposed to be sitting in judgement on others here because what I see is a number of people expressing a personal viewpoint and explaining their reasons for why they hold that viewpoint either for/against or somewhere inbetween. I've been quite open that my perceptions are based on a general reflection on what I want from holidays and a single AI experience in Cuba. I do accept that Cuba is possibly unique within the AI market but this is not because it's a communist country but because it's such a poor country and the hotel operators have such low overheads and so I wonder whether some of the things that are a problem for me might apply to other poor countries too. It's worth noting (or at least it is to me), that whilst only approximately 35% of the Melia groups hotels are outside Spain, the Cuban operation (which only forms a part of that 35%) generates more than 50% of their overall profits which suggests that their customers in Cuba are getting a singularly poor deal compared those who use their hotels in eg Spain. Especially when one bears in mind that they actually only own 49% their operation in Cuba and hence this total profit is based on only receiving 49% of the net profits made by these hotels. Whether the prices paid by customers are good value or not is a different matter but it looks to me as if AI in Cuba is potentially one of the biggest rip-offs in the tourist industry and is another reason why I'm unlikely to ever book something similar again.

I do have mixed feelings about this because over the last 4 years I can see how things have improved for people there. The Government clearly has more money to spend on things like improving the housing stock, health provision (the equivalent of a GP there has a patient list of only 120 families and home visits are the norm!), schooling etc and I can see where their increased income from the tourist industry is getting spent. So while it wasn't a concsious decision at the time - I just accepted whatever Havantour booked me into - I am glad with hindsight that the AI hotel I was in was wholly Cuban owned

the hotels we tend to use employ mainly local staff, the kitchens tend to use local produce [to keep cost down] and we drink the local beer/wine etc so however you look at it we as guest in any given country are supporting the local population

Yes, I can see how this might apply within Europe but in Cuba (and possibly elsewhere in the Caribbean) whilst most of the staff are local, in the joint venture hotels the senior management staff often aren't but are seconded from the partner company and will still be receiving the same salary as they would at home (most of which will be remitted home for obvious reasons). Very little local produce is used because Cuba is not self-sufficient in food and has difficulty feeding it's own population (hence why nearly everything you consume in a Sol Melia hotel in Cuba is actually imported - including the fresh fruit and veg and most meat because they prefer to source their meat from abbattoirs that meet EU standards and arrangements are a lot more rough and ready in Cuba). Unlike in many parts of the world, anything other than Crystal or Buccanero beers are going to be imported because none of the other international brands are brewed locally under licence and the local wine industry is very small, and to be honest the product is of variable quality, so nearly all the wine served in the tourist hotels is imported too. And of course with the exception of rum, all spirits are going to be imported too. It can actually be quite difficult in a tourist hotel to drink anything other than imported alcohol unless you only want rum cocktails and local canned/bottled beers because the local beers are rarely on draught.

SM

Sorry SMa, but your preaching and lengthy posts have got the better of me. I hope you will enjoy your future holidays that will no doubt save the local communities of financial disaster.

Yep the last comment was naughty - but there is only one preacher that I listen to......

Well said Miss Pink. Forgot I was on Holiday truths for a minute, thought I'd logged on to question time!

SMa when people retire to an ex pat community in Spain or wherever they are still doing it off their own backs with their own money and receive zilch in any sort of benefit from the country they have decided to move to. Their £s are benefitting the local spanish or whatever coffers whether they choose to spend that with other ex pats in an english speaking community or not. It seems to be brits moving abroad only compromise is on language and everything else they pay their way and moreso. A lot of people who have decided to live in the UK don't even come here with money in their pockets and a place to live. That just does not happen with brits moving elsewhere. If you don't have any money there's no point you going there, EU or not.

I'll bring up Cuba again, if it wasn't communist it wouldn't be universally poor because they could then start to run things like every other Caribbean island is run - free market. Every country one wishes to visit on holiday will have communities who are poor. Might I dare to suggest that things will only improve in Cuba if people simply stopped going there as a tourist destination full stop until they allow people to trade like everybody else does?

Miss Pink wrote:

Sorry SMa, but your preaching and lengthy posts have got the better of me. I hope you will enjoy your future holidays that will no doubt save the local communities of financial disaster.

Yep the last comment was naughty - but there is only one preacher that I listen to...... :rofl

No not naughty, just rude.

SMa has posted about her experiences on a holiday that she took in Cuba ,which have led her to question the whole AI experience. Many posters have given their opinions on the subject, which has led to some quite lively posts and the subject has led to other topics.. Nobody is being preached at. When I travel I often stay at major chain hotels sometimes with groups sometimes alone but with these sort of holidays I obviously don't get to interact too much with locals, and a major part of what I have paid for the holiday will go overseas. But I certainly don't feel as though I am being preached at for not choosing to holiday the same way as SMa. This is a discussion forum, it's not just for answering questions about the rate of the Euro and how much a beer costs, though those are valid questions and anyone familiar with discussions will know that input is rarely just one or two liners. We are all different and a holiday means different things to different people and we should be able to put forward our views without being answered by rudeness.

Sorry Judith but the intention was not to be rude, just a little naughty if you or anyone else took it as rude then I whole heardily apologise, I do however feel that I along with someother posters felt that I was being preached to from a very high pedastool.

For me, subject closed.

Ask yourself why Cuba is like it is. The answer lies in their government, or should I say president/leader. He has enforced the isolation from the international community. Not only the good old US of A (perhaps we might understand that) but the rest of the western world. Tourism is a necessary evil as it brings in much needed foreign currency.

Unfortunately we compare other countries with our own standards. Perhaps our standards are as suspect as those who we criticise. We are very happy to jet off to the latest destination featured in the Sunday supplements yet support the idea we should restrict air travel because of global warming.

Hypocritical?

Actually I am surprised that the mods have allowed the in depth discussion of a topic that has ranged far wider than HT rules.

fwh

Actually I don't think this topic has strayed from its original subject. The OP wanted to give us an opportunity to discuss what we saw as the ethics of tourism and this quite naturally covers a wide area. from how and where we choose to take our holidays to how we expect to be treated in the countries we visit. It is unfortunate that Miss Pink and another poster seemed to feel their choices were being criticised. I certainly can't speak for SMa as I have never had the pleasure of meeting her, but I certainly didn't get the impression she was 'preaching' or trying to save the planet.

For me, subject closed

OK I felt I had to respond to aslemma comment

It is unfortunate that Miss Pink and another poster seemed to feel their choices were being criticised. I certainly can't speak for SMa as I have never had the pleasure of meeting her, but I certainly didn't get the impression she was 'preaching' or trying to save the planet.

Actually that is exactly how I felt - this whole thread started as a result of another thread about someone making a lighthearted comment about how they did on spending a small amount of money on their holiday and then a couple of posters felt the need to impress their views and on how the local communities could/would suffer finanically as a result. So yes I thought preaching took place.

Our reason for choosing AI holidays is down to disability and/or location as we often wouldn't be able to walk far to eat and drink which could end up being expensive through lack of choice.
While staying HB in Costa Dorada we spent a fortune on lunches in the hotel because we couldn't walk to other restaurants or bars. When in the Dominican Republic the isolation of the hotels usually doesn't give you a lot of options anyway.

Having been visiting the DR for many years now I can remember just after 9/11 when people were too frightened to fly. The hotels were struggling so they had no choice but to lay off staff. We took our chance and flew out in the November to find a rise in both crime and prostitution due to locals having lost their income. so obviously AI hotels do provide for the local economy. I'm pleased to say that subsequent visits to DR have seen a huge upturn in employment for the local population for which they are very grateful.

As for learning the language, I do an online learning programme for each country I'm visiting which has resulted in my speaking one very strange language which is a mixture of French, Italian and Spanish, so I doubt anyone understands me now but I least I try.

SandC wrote:

SMa when people retire to an ex pat community in Spain or wherever they are still doing it off their own backs with their own money and receive zilch in any sort of benefit from the country they have decided to move to. Their £s are benefitting the local spanish or whatever coffers whether they choose to spend that with other ex pats in an english speaking community or not. It seems to be brits moving abroad only compromise is on language and everything else they pay their way and moreso. A lot of people who have decided to live in the UK don't even come here with money in their pockets and a place to live. That just does not happen with brits moving elsewhere. If you don't have any money there's no point you going there, EU or not.

I'll bring up Cuba again, if it wasn't communist it wouldn't be universally poor because they could then start to run things like every other Caribbean island is run - free market. Every country one wishes to visit on holiday will have communities who are poor. Might I dare to suggest that things will only improve in Cuba if people simply stopped going there as a tourist destination full stop until they allow people to trade like everybody else does?

Great post

To exhausted to be original. (busy working my ar$e off on 12 hour days to pay for an AI holiday once a year)

So just ditto what Sandra said.
Brilliant topic OP.

I have been following this topic with great interest but have held off making a reply because in all honesty I dont feel articulate enough to make a decent reply .

I shall also show my ignorance now by saying that we have actually booked Cuba for next years A/I holiday and I had no idea it was a communist country Hubby did and has just spent some time this morning filling me in on Cubas history .

Yes leaving food on our plates will now undoubtably make me feel very guilty but It wont change my feelings about going A/I and I wont be made to feel guilty about enjoying my 2 weeks relaxing in the sun . That is why we go , as a hard earned rest and to get away from all the worries and stress of living here . I'm sorry but to a large extent OUR charity begins at home . As already said we will be keeping the people of these countries in employment and not just the army of cleaners, bar , resturant and kitchen staff but the construction workers who build these A/I's hotels .

We are very fortunate that we also take lots of other breaks . We usually do 2/3 city breaks each year and have taken many of those in Eastern Europe . These holidays are very different for us . We enjoy spending every minute of the day and evenings out and about and taking in the history and people , spending money in resturants and bars etc . 2 weeks A/I for us is not about that . It is about spending most of our time laying on a sunbed ,reading, relaxing and enjoying being waited on for a change and not having to cook and do housework. We can't help it if we are seen to be wealthy westerners .

lyn

Lyn, I don't think most people have a problem with the AI concept in Cuba, the country needs it and like I said, unless everybody abandons it as a holiday destination (which they won't as it has too much to offer) completely then ethically I think it's absolutely fine that people are going there to AI hotels.

As already said we will be keeping the people of these countries in employment and not just the army of cleaners, bar , resturant and kitchen staff but the construction workers who build these A/I's hotels .

And it doesn't really end there does it, I've seen a huge improvement in the roads and rubbish collection over my years visiting the Dominican Republic, this has been afforded by the increase in tourism and of course gives employment to the local population. There are also the souvenir sellers and hair braiders on the beach who all have an income they wouldn't have if we didn't visit.

I've become very friendly with some of the hotel staff over the years, they go out of their way to please and not only for increased tips, they genuinely want you to have a good holiday and return again and again so they have employment.

Good post SMa, I agree with what you re saying and I started a similar post on the Turkey forum some time back, with varied repsoses and arguments.

I personally wouldn't choose AI for my holiday as it isn't the kind of holiday I enjoy and I wouldn't want to be tied to one place, I like to go SC and eat out in local restaurants, visit local markets, explore the backstreets and chat to the locals. Also having lived in Turkey and spent time with people working there I came to realise that there are problems being created by AI to local businesses. Maybe I wouldn't have considered this before but having friends who said they were suffering as a result of these kind of hotels it made me think.

I have also written posts about the behaviour some British tourists on holidays and although I'm sure most people on here are decent and well mannered it can't be argued that other people are very badly behaved and that is something that isn't a good thing either. It isn't just British tourists but they do seem a bit worse than other nationalities.

I always think that if you are visting a country you should show respect for the people who actually live there, after all we are just guests, I would hate it if a load of foreign tourists came to where I lived and acted badly.

Normally I get a whole load of people arguing against me when I say these kind of things on here so it is nice to see there are other like minded people here too.