I've no idea where you got that idea from - do you have a reference? The website for the German Embassy in London does not include the TRNC in their list of Embassies or even Consulate Offices (which because they provide service to German nationals can exist in countries that Germany does not recognise). And though my German is not brilliant its good enough for me to have done a brief search of their Foreign Office website which throws up not reference to them having any sort of diplomatic relations with the TRNC either.

The most recent reports I can find suggest that the EU is unanimous on this issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cyprus/story/0,,1810345,00.html

Given the fact that Germany is one of the countries that has expressed the greatest concern over Turkey being taken into membership of the EU and that they have focussed on the TRNC problem as one of their reasons for doing so, ie they are opposing membership on the grounds, amongst others, that Turkey is illegally occupying the territory of another member state, I'd be very surprised if they had recognised the TRNC - it undermines their position with regard to the unacceptability of Turkey for EU membership. So if you could let me have details of where you found information that Germany has recognised the TRNC and has set-up diplomatic relations I'd be grateful - they'd be the only EU country to have done so if they have.

SM

I think the ORAMS are paying the price now for being greedy and buying a cheap home that was built on someone elses land, they knew full well that most of the land in the occupied north of cyprus is greek cypriot owned, they also knew that thousands of greek cypriots where kicked off there land during the 1974 turkish invasion of cyprus.
Its wrong & illegal to purchase property that has been built on stolen land & my advice is dont risk your money, because there will be a settlement & those who have bought stolen property will lose it.

The case is a test case to see if Aposolides can claim against the Orams UK Assets using an EU directive, as the ROC courts have no jurisdiction in the North and cannot enforce their judgement. It is not intended to be a judgement on the legitimacy or otherwise of the Orams title.

Legal opinion I have read seems to suggest that the claim has a number of serious flaws in it and is unlikely to succeed. The following is one example of a legal analysis by a UK lawyer:

http://www.frankandjoan.com/images/links/Legal%20Opinion.doc

German court case with witnesses from TRNC. Do a google search.

You're going to need to be a bit more specific than that Deb18 - you're the one trying to convince me that Germany has officially recognised the TRNC as a nation state. Calling individuals as witnesses in a court case doesn't amount to legel recognition of the state where they happen to live or originate from. As far as the courts are concerned nationality isn't an issue as to your credibility as a witness and anybody living in the TRNC would legally be regarded as a citizen of Cyprus living under Turkish occupation by the courts within the EU. The situation is probably akin to the situation which existed in Vichy France during the war.

The link you give Cyberhiker makes interesting reading because it centres on whether the Orams aided and abetted by the Courts in the TRNC are going to get away with depriving the original owner of his property and not on the legitiamcy of their title. They could win the case but it doesn't mean that their title is legally or morally just - simply that there is no way that the original owner title can be enforced. It will be interesting to read the judgement when it arrives because High Court judges and the Appeal Court often make the point that their rulings have to be in accordance with the strict letter of the law but often then express their dissent on moral or natural justice grounds for the rulings they have to make. It's happened quite a bit in slander and libel cases - the ruling says, yes, you were libelled in the strict detail of the newspaper report but the spirit of it was correct and you were already a known Nazi sympathiser so we'll only award you 1p in damages and award all cost s against you because it was a vexatious case. People often 'win' their cases in English civil courts but lose out with regards to the details of the ruling.

It also raises the interesting thought for me that if the judgement goes the Oram's way it could open the floodgates for people trying to solve the holiday homes problem up here in Scotland! We are a legally a separate entity from England with regard to our legal system - a terrritory in the words of the advice - and landownership law is one of the devolved powers to the Scottish Parliament - our system of land tenure and house sales system is very different. It does raise the possibility that the Scottish Parliament could unilaterally decide that it was OK for homes owned by non-residents to be expropriated. The easiest way would be for the Scottish Parliament to change the law with regard to squatters rights. Instead of having to prove that you had occupied the land/house for 20 years as you do you now, they could make it what - 20 weeks? 20 days? This would then be what would be the law that would be enforced in Scotland and, on the basis of my reading of the legal advice you quote, would make such rulings unenforceable through the English courts which have no jurisdiction up here and 1,000s of English second home owners would lose their property unless they ensured that their property was continually occupied by somebody they could be sure wasn't going to invoke squatters' right. Would rule out most of the locals then! It could solve the rural housing problem in an instant and local young people would be able to get their foot on the property ladder after all! I wonder if the Scottish National Party are watching this case :-)

SM

I read about the german situation on some forum weeks ago so do not intend to search back but if you put german court case TRNC witnesses into google you will get results! I am not trying to convince you of anything, that would obviously be pointless. There is another country besides Turkey that recognises TRNC, see if you can find it!

Well, I did as you suggested and the first 2 hits simply indicate identical reports on 2 different Turkish sites that a German citizen is being tried for f r a u d in Germany in connection with his attempt to buy a bank in the north and the Court has agreed that the prosecution can call witnesses employed by the TRNC. The case isn't about the legal standing of the TRNC and it has no bearing on the German Government's legal and diplomatic relationship.

I note too that the reports are very carefully worded and state that the Judge involved REPORTEDLY said in his ruling that there was such a country as the TRNC. Along with 'allegedly' this is press code 'for we are not definitely saying that he did say this and if challenged we will be able say that we only said that he was reported/alleged to have said it not that he definitely did say it and now it has been proved that he didn't we will withdraw the statement'.

The tabloid press in the UK use this ploy to get away with making outrageous statements about people and then burying the retraction and apology in the back pages. I wouldn't be surprised if the papers in the Tommy Sheridan case don't try to do the same thing in the next day or 2. They've had their chance to repeat and get reported in the press all their original allegations, they've got tremendous free publicity out of it and I suspect will now try and go for an out of court settlement in the next day or two. Though of course they might already have tried this and Sheridan has refused to play with them and knowing that they can't prove the allegations has instead called their bluff by going for a full hearing.

So to come back on-topic if you want to prove to me that the German Government has recognised the government of the TRNC and no longer considers northern Cyprus to be illegally occupied territory then you'll have to come up with evidence to prove that they have by eg establishing diplomatic relations. Produce the evidence, including the name and source for any other countries that you think have recognised the TRNC as a state in its own right, and I'll willingly have a look at it but what you've produced so far doesn't prove this and I can't be bothered trying to look for the evidence on your behalf if you can't or won't put it forward yourself. That's a bit like one party in a court case saying I'm not going to produce any evidence to support my case - you can do it for the both of us :-)

A judge acknowledging that people living in the TRNC are credible witnesses who can be called to testify in a case being heard by a German court doesn't mean that just because they happen to be employees of the TRNC this means the German Government has now set up diplomatic relations or recognises the TRNC as a legal entity or state. If that was the case, Robbie the Pict who used to live near me and claims he's head of state for the Pictish nation - he even issues passports for anybody who wants one - really is what he says he is and the state he claims to be in charge of really does exist because he's appeared in the local Sherrif Court :-)

SM

Eurodude,

I know that you have strong feelings on this topic as a result of your parents' experience and I hope you realise that I personally have a lot of sympathy with your frequent reminders that potential buyers in the northern part of Cyprus need to exercise great caution because of the question marks over land title there but you need to take care about the the way you express your sentiments and in particular not to make allegations about specific named people in a public forum like this. That could not only put the future of the forum at risk but potentially put the Mods and Admin in danger of criminal or civil proceedings. So please do not do it and take note that in the short time between me reading it and being able to respond they appear to have removed your recent post. If you removed it yourself, well done, I'm glad you realised that it was not a good thing to have done in the first place. On the other hand, if the Mods and Admin have removed it please do not be tempted to re-post it.

SM

Thanks SM, that saved me just typing up an explanation as to why I had to remove Eurodude's post.

MarkJ HT Mod

sm, i dont think that the estate agents , developers & wanted criminals that i named are in any position to take any legal action against anyone, remember the OCCUPIED north of cyprus is not a reconised state & therefore no legal action can be taken because the courts in the occupied north are not valid or reconised by any country except there boss turkey.
Its a shame that holiday truth carrys advertising for companies that are selling property in the OCCUPIED NORTH OF CYPRUS where so much land is disputed, my advice is dont RISK your money & future by buying a home that could be built on someone elses land.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/2006/06-06-07.tcpr.html
from ROC site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Azerbaijan

The comment I made based partly on what I had read that the lawyer for the defence tried to stop the witnesses due to the fact that TRNC was not recognised but failed. Then Talat having talks with German foreign minister was next headline. No this does not mean that Germany has officially stated that they recognise the TRNC. It appears quite a few countries will willing have 'talks' (Jack Straw for one) with a country that does not exist, wonder what they talked about?

I'm sorry but this all gets very annoying when you know a number of politicans have property in NC and you sit in Girne or bellapais and see over 20 coaches from the south bringing the tourists, providing them with packed lunches so that they won't spend any money and telling them not to drink the water or buy anything! and there is wonderful big EU sign showing the high street before and after the EU money was spent on it!

I'm afraid I did not see the removed post but from your comments can guess what was said.

Please note Eurodude is probably a cypriot from the south living in UK, no parents in north, this is used as an opening so posts are not removed. Members of NC forums have been receiving emails identical to those posted here and on another holiday forum, and are now receiving very abusive and threatening emails so much so that they have been reported to ISP. Of course it could be that there is a group of people sending identical emails!

Whilst I fully understand that members have to be very aware of the political climate in any country they wish to make such an important purchase in, these discussions always tend to get very heated.

It might therefore be best that this thread is locked.

MarkJ HT Mod