Holiday Complaints

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I see what everyone is saying about the money side of this but the fact still remains on their website they were offering me the hotel for a price which they wouldnt honour the next day. Their mistake certainly was not mine and as it happens i have photographic evidence of the price, details of hotel and the fact it was avail and ready to book ( sounds strange i know but i photod screen to text details to a friend :oops: ).
When i rang them the next day they said they would not honour it and were very off hand with me.
Considering it was their fault with their systen you would think customer servise would be a priority but obviously not. Im still awaiting a response from Mr David Clifford to see if i will receive ANY compenastion for the farce which this has become.
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With the benefit of SMa's advice and knowledge, and with PM info from several interested parties I suspect there's nothing more sinister here than a technological cock-up, aided and abetted by a reluctance on the part of the banking fraternity to address the issues which became apparent to me within a few minutes of becomming involved in this topic.

I think we should respect the m.d. of WSH for having the whatsits for posting on here....as I implied earlier, many directors of (large) companies will rarely communicate directly with their customers even by letter.

Wishful thinking perhaps but it would be nice to read the comments Kat's bank's m.d. might have re. the slow processing of cancelled payment requests. My recent experience with a high street bank and the ongoing Ombudsman's case leads me to have little confidence in the service concerns of major banks.

There still remains the element of a web-offered rate, being offered (to treat), payment being proffered (although not received) and the offer subsequently being rescinded. Such action, whilst strictly speaking within the law, could have been handled better by the lower level staff within WSH especially as they have a responsive and communicative m.d. guiding them.

A gesture from WSH (without prejudice of course :lol: ) to cover the extra cost of accommodation for Kat would, I think, raise that company's profile considerably on this forum - inexpensive advertising really.

Mike
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I have booked my accomodation with WSH today with no problems whatsoever, although I was having problems with their site for the previous 2 days but as I say no problems at all today.
This will be the 4th time I have used them without any problems and I find they are the cheapest with the 8% loyalty discount.
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Just to bring you up to speed... WSH contacted my bank yday 3rd Jan and advised them they were aborting the transaction :evil: .

I paid them at 14.45 on Jan 1st so it took them 48hours to contact my bank and get the money avail to me again.

I emailed them and was offerd a discount of 8% which is an empty gesure as if Mr Clifford read my post he would have noted i have since booked other accommodation.

I mailed back to advise them of this and this is my latest response........

Dear Ms. Rowley,



Our apologies, we must have misread the situation.



It was our understanding that you were asking for the accommodation (Days Belfast) to be offered at the original price that you attempted to book it at on the 1st January 2007, to which we were informing that this unfortunately was not possible as the special priced room that must have been on offer at that time was not now available.



We have previously advised that no booking was placed, no confirmation documentation was provided and no money was taken from your card. Whilst we do sincerely apologise for the initial problem of your booking failing, we cannot offer compensation in this instance.



Very Kindest Regards







Customer Services

Winter Sunshine Holidays Ltd.



t: +44(0) 1332 871 990

Talk about great customer service..... It took them ( wsh ) two days to contact my bank to abort the transaction. Thats 2 days that my money was unavail to me as it was waiting for them to collect.
The bank have once again stated that the money became avail straight away after they had confirmation yday from WSH that they were aborting the transaction.

To sum this up.... I tried to make a booking with funds avail and paid using my card at 14.45 on the 1st Jan 2007.
Their was a problem with WSH web site / page and the hotel wasnt avail at the advertised price so even though the money was instantly debited / made unavailable to myself, WSH aborted the transaction some 48 hours later. Only then was my money avail for me again. So much for real time.... Why did WSH not abort the transaction straight away ?
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The problem here is with the banking system - for some reason they always liken themselves to The Pope - they are infallible.

They have a system that can immediately take money from one account but then spend four days putting it into another. Strange is it not that, on a Bank Holiday, they can remove your money yet, any monies due to you in the system will not arrive until after.

Perhaps a compliant to the Banking Ombudsman would be appropriate in this case.

I agree with Mike that for the MD of WSH to post on this site shows they are prepared to be open in their dealings - something that many of the companies quoted on this site are not. An unfortunate technology problem and the staff having a holiday (why do we always assume that we are the only ones entitled to a day off?) is, in my opinion, a reasonable explanation.

Whilst I can understand your dissatisfaction I do think it is the bank at fault here.

fwh
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The bank have confirmed i clicked on pay on 1st jan at 14.45
and they received notification from WSH only yday some 48hours later to abort the transaction. As soon as WSH contacted my bank the money became avail to me again.
The faults here were firstly on the WSH web site and secondly their 48 hour delay in telling my bank to abort the transaction.
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OK,
in my opinion (I am NOT a lawyer - so please accept this is my OPINION only) the situation as now described by Kat and confirmed by her bank is bordering upon a breach of contract by WSH.

I learned a lesson many years ago in a case I pursued against a company in the local county court. Namely, the actions of company A when dealing with company B bear no relevance to the contract that exists between company B and company C.

Consider this argument:

Kat accessed the web site and agreed to meet the conditions posted upon there by WSH - namely to tender payment to a value of £x. This was accepted by the site system (controlled by WSH) without human intervention (presumably, as David explained Jan 1 was a holiday).

Two days later, on Wed the transaction is aborted.

In those two days money will have moved (ponderously albeit) from Kat's account towards the bank representing WSH. In fact, if WSH and Kat share the same bankers there's every likelihood that the money would actually have been in WSH's account on Wed. as the Tuesday was a bank working day in the the UK.

I suspect that the staff at WSH, unable to secure the advertised rate with the hotel Kat booked in Belfast then decided to abort the transaction. I fail to see why, if the initial sale transaction and request for payment can be fully automated why the abort procedure cannot also be fully automated.

Clearly it is not.

Given the time delay before aborting and given that WSH can no longer support their argument that money was not requested (clearly it was) I would consider this to be a breach of contract. 48 hours to ponder the deal is unacceptable.

I think they should stand by their agreement, take the loss on the chin and improve their systems/procedures. One simple way might be to close their web-site whilst there offices are unattended.

A second way might be to email when the booking is confirmed (it appears this has happened with other successful bookers but not Kat).

A third might be the sendng of an email when the request to debit funds has been undertaken but no confirmation/booking ref. generated. Ideally, these two events should only be permitted in concert.

Fourth, all aborted transactions/fail to complete transactions should be audit reported on hard-copy and if necessary emailed hourly to a duty member of staff who can then arrange for the banking aborts within a couple of hours.

Fifth, when an abort is raised so long after the initial request for funds an apology email should be raised stating the reason for the delay and giving the date/time of both the initial request for funds and the subsequent abort of the transaction (timings as lodged with the bank that is).

Sixth, If WSH operate on a real-time basis with their suppliers, the hotels, they should make this clear on their website and should warn the customer that unless a booking reference is displayed (or email received to that effect) there is no active booking.

Seventh, the supplying hotels (WSH being the hotels customer in effect) should have an agreement with WSH that warns the WSH system when prices change. These new prices should be reflected on the web site immediately. WSH have already admitted they operate a real-time system with the hotels and the failure to access the hotel system, whilst unfortunate, does not cntractually affect the dealings between WSH and Kat unless WSH are acting as Kat's agent. I suspect they are not and if anything are acting as the hotel's agent or else independently.

Finally, it appears that I owe the banking fraternity an apology as they only received the abort instruction on Wed 3rd Jan and funds became available immed. afterwards.

I'd be interested to know who has had the benefit of that money for the 48 hours.

Mike
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Being now in receipt of further information it appears I am mistaken.

The fault (if indeed any now exists) lies with the bank and not with WSH. My cynicism should have pointed me in that direction anyway and kept me focussed in that same direction.

Apologies to David Clifford, and to fwh whose wise words appear to be correct again.

Kat, all I can say is sometimes things don't work out but I'd prefer that condition to arise with a company who's m.d. is prepared to discuss the matter in open forum. I'd give this company another chance.

APACS is the body who deals with bank clearing issues. They may have some comment on the length of time taken to process an abort transaction. You'll find then here Kat:

APACS - The UK Payments Association
Mercury House
Triton Court
14 Finsbury Square
London
EC2A 1LQ

T. +44 (0)20 7711 6368
F. +44 (0)20 7256 5527

Media Enquiries: press@apacs.org.uk
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Just a point to consider. Is your bank a Scottish Bank by any chance? If so the 2nd Jan was also a bank holiday in Scotland which could explain why the notification was not received until 3rd Jan.
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I bank with the Halifax.
Mike i agree it was good of Mr Clifford to post on here but then again he knows that and thats why he did so.
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I bank with the Halifax.


And the Halifax is now merged with the Bank of Scotland - and as another poster pointed out the 2nd is also a public holiday in Scotland. They've tended to keep their existing branding for their branches either side of the border but legally Kat's account is now with HBOS not the 'Halifax' which no longer exists as a legal entity. The reason why the Halifax wanted to merge with BoS is so that they would be able to become a fully fledged bank and it is my understanding from a friend who works for them that all the Halifax's mainstream banking services where integrated into the BoS system and it's Scottish law which governs their banking operations. One reason for doing this is that under Scottish law (unlike in England) they sell credit to 16yr olds. So the answer could be as simple as the fact I have already pointed out - the recrediting transaction would not have taken place until the bank opened for business on Wednesday 3rd January.

This all boils down to the fact that despite the illusion that on-line and electronic banking results in money being instantaneously being debited and credited, it isn't. Debit card transactions are not based on handing your money over at the click of touchpad. Better to see it as more like you are issuing an IOU to the trader that your bank will honour on the same timeline as a cheque but unlike a cheque, they know exactly when you have issued that IOU and make sure that you can't issue them for more than the total funds you have available to pay off those IOUs when presented by your creditors. In Kat's case WSH notified her and her bank that they wouldn't be presenting the IOU for payment.

Different banks have different policies on when they start paying/charging interest on funds in the clearing system. LloydsTSB for example pays interest on funds until the moment it actually leaves your account. In Kat's case because they never left her account because the transaction was aborted before the 3 working clearing days were up, she would have lost no interest if her account had been with them. They also pay interest on cheques paid into your account from the day after the cheque is entered into the system as long as the cheque is later honoured by the payer's bank.

Finally, let's remember that she didn't end up out of pocket on her hotel booking because, if I've read her earlier posts correctly, she actually booked with Hilton in the end who gave her a better deal than the original WSH booking. So she's asking for compensation because of the anxiety she experienced from the point in time when she realised that having booked her flights she now no longer had a hotel booked until she was able to book with Hilton and confirm that no money had left her bank account. As far as I can tell that was a maximum of 48 hours. I think that it's unlikely that such a claim will get very far as it would be difficult to prove exactly what detriment the claimant had experienced in a case like this.

Lessons to be learnt by us all for the future?

1) Always use a credit rather than a debit card for online transactions because you have far more protection and you have greater rights to cancel the transaction yourself than you do with a debit card.

2) Take account of bank practices with regards to 'clearing' timelines.

3) Take account of public holidays etc and the fact that online systems operate 24/7 but the real people you will need to speak to if something goes wrong don't always do so.

4) Add your voice to those of other consumers who are trying to get banks to be more transparent in their dealings with their customers, including on what their policies are with regards the when they start charging/paying interest on funds entering and leaving your account.

SM
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Cracking post SM.

Thanks again for the valuable info.

Mike
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Lessons to be learnt by us all for the future?

Yes, but not the ones SM may be referring to.
Have we perhaps been diverted (inadvertently) into considering the complexities of the banking system, when the real issue is a company with a track record for giving their customers headaches? From this website, previous posts from Mr Clifford -
1. Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:53 pm. We very much appreciate our customers continued patience and understanding, and hope that this unfortunate temporary situation has not discouraged both previous and possible new customers from using our company.
2. Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:04 am. Please be assured that we are working through all our backlog of requests for balance payments, amendments and enquiries. We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience this situation has caused.
3. Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:56 pm. We apologise for any inconvenience caused to yourself regarding your recent attempt to place a loyalty discount booking with our company.
4. Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:05 pm. Please accept our apologies for the performance issues on our websites over the last few days.

Don't know what other people have learnt , but I now know what to avoid like the plague!!

Peter
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I dissagree, looks to me like they are being honest enough to accept things go wrong and at least bother to reply to a public website like this, no tour operator has a tottaly clean record it just us the public only ever reconising the bad points as usual. i bet there have been thousands and thousands of happy customers, in a way i feel sorry for companys who are honest and only get stick for itat least they have replied.
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Peter, sometimes companies Do get it wrong.

Jessop, sometime companies Do apologise.

Mix the two equations, apply to the entire travel industry, sieve, and pour the results...........

WSH !

BA fit the first category (in spades) but haven't posted on here). XL or Excel (same) - likewise ......... nothing on here.

So which company gets it right ALL THE TIME - but fails to mention it on here ?

All credit to WSH - they attempt to explain. More than most do.
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i agree, i do also think that ba arnt bad but thats another story you talk alot of sense mike.
it would be great to see a proper ethical tour operator out there but i guess the way the current climate is that would be impossible?
regards jessop.
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When a product is advertised on the internet or in a shop it is in a legal sense only an invitation to treat. In a shop if you take a product up to the cash desk and they try to charge you more they are not doing anything legally wrong as the contract of purchase is finalised at the till. The store must then change the wrongly priced product within a reasonable amount of time. Same applies here. The holiday was an invitation to treat and it was not confirmed as the booking procedure (hence the contract of purchase) was not finalised. I think wsh should as a gesture of good will allow the holiday to be purchased for this price. However it seems from their emails this wont be a case. WSH are referring to the payment as a bank transfer which can be twisted to mean not actual debit payment in the legal world.
On the bright side atleast they are making the process of repaying the money back relatively simple . :)
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Greenshoes wrote:
In a shop if you take a product up to the cash desk and they try to charge you more they are not doing anything legally wrong as the contract of purchase is finalised at the till


With all due respect, whilst I am not a Consumer Lawer, or a Lawyer of any kind, I have worked in Retail, and I think you will find you are mistaken there. :roll:

It is illegal to sell goods for more than the price they are marked up at unless it is a genuine mistake and the shop operates good systems of checking its prices. The goods for sale are called 'invitations to treat' and the Seller doesn't have to sell them to you. That means that if they have made a mistake with a price they can withdraw the item from sale. However, you cannot insist that a Trader sells you goods at the price marked. The shop should remove the goods from sale and re-price them correctly. When you make a purchase, you - the Buyer, enter into an agreement or a contract with the Seller. To establish a contract of sale/purchase actually requires three stages:

(1) an 'invitation to treat',
(2) the 'offer'
(3) an 'acceptance' by both the Seller and the Buyer. The Seller agrees to sell the item at the advertised price and the buyer agrees to pay that price for the item.

In a shop, the customer browses the store and then chooses to buy from the goods on sale (this is the invitation to treat) the customer then 'offers' to purchase the goods and the shopkeeper 'accepts' by taking the money thereby concluding the 'contract' or agreement.

Now if buying Online, or On the Web the advertisement of the goods will amount to an 'invitation to treat' and so when the customer submits an order online (he is giving his intention to buy an item from that website...this is the 'offer'), and the website seller can either 'accept' or if they choose, to reject the order, and thus decline to enter into the agreement, or contract.

The shop could be breaking the law if they attempt to charge you more for the item than what the price label shows, and they risk prosecution by the Trading Standards Department . The Consumer Protection Act 1987 says that it is illegal to sell things for a higher price than that which is displayed. Part III of this Act makes it a criminal offence for the seller to give misleading information about the price of goods, such as displaying a lower price than the price charged at the tills.

If the shop has made a genuine mistake, and can prove the wrong price ticket was put on by accident, they may not face criminal action. Everyone can make mistakes, after all.

I used to work in a branch of a large supermarket chain, and if the product scanned at the checkout was priced higher than the shelve edge label, or price marked on the item and the customer noticed it, they were entitled to a full refund of the item and then they were given the item free of charge as a gesture of goodwill. That is not normal practice everywhere of course, but this is why many of the larger companies employ staff simply to Price Check their goods as they could in theory be fined very heavily for over charging. If of course they undercharge, well that is their loss and not an offence.

You cannot insist that the shop sells you the item at the marked price, even if it is proved that a genuine mistake has been made. This is where a lot of people get confused about their Consumer Rights. Shops are not legally obliged to sell customers anything but most are happy to serve you because that's why they're in business afterall. If they choose not to serve you and let you have the item at the marked price,there isn't much you can do about it unless they discriminate against you because of your race, religion or sex. That is of course illegal.

To sum up then, It is a criminal offence under Part 111 of The Consumer Protection Act 1987, to fail to provide a price indication that is clear and legible and clearly associated with the goods. And to give a misleading price indication or to charge more than the indicated price, or to mislead as to the previous price of an item and thereby suggest that a reduction is greater than in fact it is.

Sorry if that was a wee bit :offtop , but I think the point is an important one and needed clarification.
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Well done BenidormHIC, that's most interesting.

I would urge the original complainant to have a word their local Trading Standards Dept. They are experts in the field of consumer protection and the criminal law relating to it.

Trading Standards from all over the country work very closely together and swap and collate information.

If any offences under consumer law are revealed they'll take them on in my experience.

Peter
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