I for one certainly agree with you but it seems there is nothing we can do,it's a case of win win for them.

A TO gives you in writing, the terms and conditions under which they are prepared to do business with you. They need to consider every possible combination of circumstances when they write them.

Oh that so many other businesses would do the same.

Perhaps before anyone claims they are unfair they should spend a little time reading through them. Look at it from the other side. What T&Cs would you apply - just think about it. If the only way you could book your holiday was to put together your own T&Cs what would you put in them?

I agree some of them - on the surface - do seem a little one sided, but they are in business to make a profit for the shareholders - they could be your pension fund or your investments. Are you happy for them to be watered and therefore impact on your income?

Perhaps more attention should be paid to the way they handle your complaint. That is an area desperately in need of attention.

We are very fortunate. The protection of ABTA and ATOL is there when something goes wrong with your holiday or they go bust. We have access to the small claims court and people such as Ros Fernihough when things go wrong.

Have a look at the complaints about cowboy builders and such. Those who have seen their investments wiped out or reduced to a pittance.

There is of course the problem if they were to water them down in the way you suggest - The cost of holidays would be much much higher.

Perhaps we are not quite as badly off as some think.

fwh

Totally agree with you fwh. I wish people would read the terms and conditions BEFORE demanding refunds, compensation etc.

The fact is that if we want Tour Operators who offer ammendments/cancellations at a low price then we will all have to pay more for our holidays in the first instance.

We tend to do diy holidays nowadays. Quite often if booking direct with the hotel then you don't have to pay in advance - and even if you cancel 24 hours in advance you often only forfeit one nights accomodation. Last year we booked an apartment direct with the owner and had to change dates - no problem - no charge either.

Pippa

I love this clause which is totally untrue because somebody can claim compenastion through the small claims court without consulting the tour op within 28 days of return.

We would point out that failure to follow the above procedures during your Holiday, and/or failure to complain within 28 days of your return, may reduce or extinguish any rights you have to claim compensation from us, orfrom any relevant supplier. Any such rights will be reduced or extinguished if, had you followed the above procedures during your Holiday, you or we could have taken steps to reduce any loss or damage suffered or entirely prevented it from being suffered.

Plenty of clauses are sensible but any clause in the T&C involving money will always be 100% in the tour ops favour and is not right.

The clause is correct and dependent upon the case and circumstances a court would support the TO. reporting initiating a complaint/claim within 28 days is reasonable If that was not true then total anarchy could rule with claims being submitted months if not years after.

Remember what I suggested - consider what conditions you would apply. Failure on the part of the claimant to endeavour to resolve the problem in resort could negate a claim. Quite reasonable in my opinion.

I, like others, have had problems when on holiday. Most have been sorted out in resort. In one case as I have posted before I emailed the TO in the UK when the rep failed to act. He was not happy but the problem was resolved within resort in less than 24 hours.

The T&Cs are there for purpose and protect you as well as the TO. If you are not happy with them then the answer lies with you. Do not book with them. Unfortunately you cannot pick and choose the ones you like.

fwh

FHW

You get it completely wrong, I was saying if return and don't contact the tour op within 28 days you can still take them to a small claims court, the clause I posted did not say anything about not reporting it in the resort, just not reporting it to the tour op within 28 days of your return. Any sensible person would talk to the rep and fill in a complaint form in the resort.

If don't like the T&C don't book it, then thats saying never go on holiday. People have no choice but agree to a set of unfair T&C when it comes to anything to do with money the T&C are 100% infavour of the tour op and thats the part of the T&C what I find unfair. I think it would be more fair if the tour op cancelled the holiday they would have to pay the customer compensation the same as the deposit paid by the customer. A charge per booking and not per person when a change is made. The level of deposit should be looked at, cancelling a holiday does not cost the tour op the level of deposit charged, in their own words the deposit will cover costs involved cancelling the holiday.

I believe there should be a cooling off period when a holiday is booked something the consumer assoication has put forward in the past.

If it means a slight increase in the cost of the holiday to have more fair T&C so be it. You said the making a complaint to the tour op and how it is handled should be looked, we all know the tour op will try to fob you off, but as you say they are their to make a profit. I believe the same attitude of trying to get customer to give up asking for compensation applies to the tour ops T&C but with the T&C when it comes to money they can do as they please. One the reasons why I believe cirtain parts of the T&C are unfair.

Terms & conditions are what they say! They set out what the TO or any other company will require agreement of them to do business with someone.

I do not disagree that in some cases they favour the supplier rather than the customer. If I call out a tradesman to give me a quote and he states that he will not come unless I pay him £50 for his trouble then I have a choice. I either pay him or find someone else. If they all say the same thing then I have no choice. I might add that where someone is required to get three quotes for a job then the scenario is not unusual. The £50 being refunded if they are given the job.

We need to consider that the T&Cs do protect us. They set out the rules that not only bind us but the TO.

When I was a service manager then people would book vehicles in for repair. I then took bookings for other jobs based on the fact that a job was booked in. A garage sells time - if a job is booked for one hour at 8.00am and it does not turn up then until 9.00am it is lost. If it did not turn up then I still had to pay my technicians and because I had turned work down then I lost money both ways. Even I used to insist on a non refundable deposit from some customers at times.

If people feel that change needs to be made then the Office of fair Trading need to be lobbied. They are the only people who have the clout to bring about changes.

My comment re in resort reporting had a purpose. many people read topics here on HT without actually posting. When we reply I feel we should ensure the information we give should help guide them besides replying to a specific question or topic.

As I am off to the airport in a couple of hours I will take careful note of any problems - Just in case.

fwh

Just a small point - the fact that a clause is in the mass produced standard T&Cs and you have signed the contract DOESN'T mean it's legally binding in all circumstances.

If it can be shown that a standard clause has created a "significant imbalance" in the consumers' rights a court may declare it unfair and take it out of any subsequent argument. It's covered by the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and you can read up on it (in plain English) at http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38609.html

That little gem came in handy when I was trying to get a refund from MyTravel a couple of years ago.

I can see both sides of the argument here but whilst understanding the need for terms and conditions so that everyone knows where they stand. They do seem heavily weighted in favor of the TO's.

I do have little sympathy for folk who simply change their mind, though and then come on and claim the admin fee is unjust. I think yesterday one of the travel agents who posts said someone came in to change their hotel as they were feeling 'bad vibes' about it.

However when I hear that someones holiday, booked for over twelve months prior is cancelled three days before the date 30 quid compo kicks in and it transpires that the TO has known of the problems for months I think TO's deserve all the bad publicity they get.

Surely a cynical ploy to trap people into transfering to another hotel with them rather than re-booking with another company, as their options will be so limited by this late stage.