VIRGIN HOLIDAYS/VIRGIN ATLANTIC

10con

2005-04-28 08:30:36

Booked via Virgin Holidays/Atlantic Mexico Wedding/40th birthday trip to Mexico 12 months in advance. All frills included (obviously charged extra), very expensive holiday but thought it would be worth it.

Flight out from Heathrow was delayed 3 hours, consequently making connecting flight tight for time. On arrival at Miami, was ushered to front of plane after being reassured by cabin crew that AA plane was waiting for us. Made to RUN (yes run!) though immigration and customs at Miami. This took 20 minutes, and were assured that our luggage would be found in this time and transferred to connecting flight. Arrived at AA check-in desk to see plane pushing back - 1 minute after desk closure. AA staff denied that they had been told to wait for us after ALL Virgin staff said they were. Made to walk back through Miami terminal (another 15 minute walk), to Virgin desk. Had a debate for two hours regarding onward flight. Was told as it was holiday season, there would be no flight for three days. After much arguing, they relented and put us up in Miami Airport hotel but with no luggage as this was in transit at the Airport (after being told that it would make the cancun flight without us). Booked on AA flight 24 hours later - all adult members were booked in Business Class, my 9 year old (despite having a 22 hour travel time previous day) was booked in economy on his own. Missed out on day's holiday (which cost us £500 per day), feel that Virgin should refund this as we paid for goods we never actually received - Virgin Atlantic have offered three flights at 50% reduction as compo - why should be throw more money at them in order to receive this? Never want to fly with them again, why can't they refund our first days holiday money? Virgin Holidays brochure states that they will give compensation if any part of travel is disruped - apparently this only applies to travel from Airport of Arrival to Hotel and back again - it does not cover flights. Very misleading, brochure should be re-worded. Totally hacked off with Virgin, no-one is accepting the blame, delays on arrival resulted in non-delivery of some wedding extras (which we paid for) at hotel as we were a day late. No-one has offered a solution to this, very stressful time for us with wedding (and being 40), you would think that if they took the best part of £7,000 for a two week hol, they would do the honourable thing and uphold their responsibilities. Have written to Abta, but don't hold out much hope. Any advice?????

Glynis HT Admin

2005-04-28 09:44:57

Call Ros Fernihough who is a travel law lawyer and assists our members. She will offer you free advice on where you stand legally and point you in the right direction.

01922 621114

fallenangel

2005-04-28 11:02:04

Good idea to ask for advice, but remember Virgin Holidays and Virgin Atlantic are not the same company, so they wont treat your claim together.

Unfortunately what the brochure states is what you sign into by way of your contract.

mrsJ

2005-04-28 13:28:18

Unfortunately what the brochure states is what you sign into by way of your contract.

Not necessarily true. Where there is a conflict between the brochure conditions and consumer law, consumer law always takes precedence. It seems to me that under the circumstances, you are entitled to claim compensation. The Tour Operator had a duty to ensure that the connecting plane waited for you before taking off, irrespective of whether it was operated directly by them or by one of their sub-contractors.

As Glynis says, Ros should be able to advise you as to how to proceed from here.

rachie-m

2005-04-28 15:46:28

Gosh and I thought I had gripes with Virgin holidays but yours takes the biscuit!! It's disgusting that they seem to be able to get away with these things, let alone all the stress you have had to pay extra for a night that you did not have in your resort. Why should it be the customer that suffers every time. I'm still waiting for a full refund of a holiday they cancelled 6 weeks ago, am very close to going to small claims court! Maybe just keep pestering them? I know it's stressful but why should you be the one to lose out? Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
Rachael

Traveller

2005-04-29 11:52:30

The Tour Operator had a duty to ensure that the connecting plane waited for you before taking off

- I don't think so! Airlines are rarely going to throw out their schedules to wait for a couple of missing passengers. Given the option of two/three people missing a flight and delaying hundreds on the aircraft - perhaps a few hundred more on the return flight and a few hundred more on knock on delays - the airline will take the less disruptive measure. And to be honest I would agree with that.

Sorry however to hear of your problem 10Con.

10con

2005-04-29 12:36:20

Traveller - I tend to agree with you that the Airline would not hold the plane for two missing passengers (when in fact there were 9) although I must correct you in that we were not technically 'missing'. All the cabin crew on the Virgin Atlantic flight that we spoke to said that AA had been told of our arrival, Virgin Desk Staff said that AA had been told, yet AA deny this. The thread of a lot of complaints about Virgin is that they tell lies. It was not our fault that we were not at the desk at the check-in time, it was Virgin's. Rather the truth and be damned!

Traveller

2005-04-29 20:17:52

A couple of years back our Delta flight was late leaving Gatwick through a combination of two late passengers at the gate

and ATC problems

as we missed our slot time for take off. We made up time on-route but then sat at Atlanta airport on a taxiway waiting for a gate to become free. Once the aircraft parked and we got off the ground staff assured us that our onward flight (in 50 mintes by now) would be held for us and other connecting passengers. Getting through ATL was a nightmare, but we already had our boarding cards and luggage was checked to New Orleans so just had to get through immigration and to the gate. We ran to the new departure gate only to be refused boarding. The plane to New Orleans was still on the gate but they had let stand-by passengers on the flight. Delta would not give in or assist. 23 of us from the Gatwick flight missed the flight. Delta refused to pay for over night accommodation as the flight was recorded as an "ATC" delay. We had to sort out our own hotel for the night although DL did give us a choice of flights the next morning. When we got to New Orleans our luggage was waiting for us - it made the original flight!

I really do sympathise with your plight. It sounds like communications broke down and the message did not reach AA. I would be surprised if the Virgin staff lied to you on purpose. What would they gain from that?Even if the message of your delayed arrival to your onward flight were to reach AA, I'm not however sure that they would have necessarily held the flight for you.

Out of curiosity, do you know why the Virgin flight from London was delayed? If it was down to Virgin (a technical fault with the plane for example) then I can't see why they would not have accommodated you at Miami, or perhaps would compensate you now. If it was down to weather delays it is a little more difficult.

mrsJ

2005-04-29 23:09:51

The Tour Operator had a duty to ensure that the connecting plane waited for you before taking off
- I don't think so!

Well... With respect, that would appear to be the position that the law takes, given the circumstances we are talking about in this case.

Had the passengers arrived after the plane had taken off, then possibly that might have put a different slant on it. However, under section 15 of the Package Travel Regulations, the only defence that a tour operator would be likely to have against a claim of negligence where a connecting plane providing travel for part of a holiday package had not already departed, would be to prove that their failure to get the passengers in question onto the plane was unavoidable; and as the plane had yet to leave the tarmac when the passengers arrived at the gate to board it, I don't really see how Virgin are in a position to argue this.

If Virgin did tell AA to wait until 10con and the other passengers had boarded and they ignored this, then they themselves may have a claim against AA. However, it doesn't get them off the hook where 10con and the other passengers who missed the plane are concerned. Nor does the fact that their brochure is worded ambiguously with regards to compensation for disruption of travel get them off the hook, either. The Unfair Contract Terms Act stipulates that where any contract terms are unclear or misleading, the benefit of doubt in interpreting them is to be given to the customer; not the Tour Operator.

10con

2005-04-30 12:55:57

Traveller - As far as I am aware, the plane was delayed because they were waiting for a pilot! I am not an unreasonable person and can understand that for one reason or another delays occur, but for the sake of customer relations, I would expect Virgin to hold their hands up and offer us what we are asking for - the money we paid for the first days holiday that we never had. It' :?:

s like buying items from a shop, getting to the check out, the cashier taking a few items away and saying sorry, we can't let you have those for blah, blah, blah reasons and leaving the shop with goods that you have paid for but not received. Where else, but in the travel industry, would you get away with this?

fallenangel

2005-04-30 13:01:29

If you actually tell Virgin Holidays what you want back and state why in a letter (the days holiday you lost) they should give you the refund of one nights accommodation, worked out on the extra night brochure price (per person). If the accommodation was unused, then you should be able to get it back.

If you used the accommodation, they will not give you anything because they have still paid the supplier for that night.

Traveller

2005-04-30 13:55:39

Waiting for a pilot ! Wow. Guess that is something worth waiting for!

As fallenangel states - a letter to Virgin Holidays asking for the cost of the unused night back as compensation should yield a result. I have a feeling that Virgin would still have to pay the hotelier for that night as it would have been reserved for your family and the hotel were probably unaware of your delayed flight saga. Anyway, that's not your fault - a friendly letter to Virgin I'm sure will help get you what you want.

Hope once you got to Mexico that you had a good time.

Traveller

2005-04-30 14:00:28

mrsj - I've just read section 15 of the Package Holidays Regulations but do not see what part in section 15 covers the case of the tour operator having to hold the plane? Can you tell me what part you are referring to?

However, under section 15 of the Package Travel Regulations, the only defence that a tour operator would be likely to have against a claim of negligence where a connecting plane providing travel for part of a holiday package had not already departed, would be to prove that their failure to get the passengers in question onto the plane was unavoidable; and as the plane had yet to leave the tarmac when the passengers arrived at the gate to board it, I don't really see how Virgin are in a position to argue this.

mrsJ

2005-04-30 20:10:24

Sure.

Section 15 of the Package Holidays Regulations states the following:

15(1)The other party to the contract (i.e. the tour operator) is liable to the consumer for the proper performance of the obligations under the contract, irrespective of whether such obligations are to be performed by that other party ( i.e. the tour operator) or by other suppliers of services... (i.e. such as an airline)

Given that the connecting plane had not yet left the tarmac when the passengers arrived at the airport, in my view the courts would be likely to interpret the proper performance of the contract to be that all reasonable efforts should have been made by both the TO and the airline to try and get the passengers onto the flight so that they could be flown on to their destination. That is certainly the line that seems to have been taken by the courts when similar cases have been brought before them in the past.

In such cases, the courts have ruled that the onus is on the tour operator to prove that failing to get the passengers onto connecting transport could not in any way have been avoided.

The regulations go on to say that...

(2) The other party to the contract (i.e. the tour operator) is liable to the consumer for any damage caused to him by the failure to perform the contract or the improper performance of the contract unless the failure or the improper performance is due neither to any fault of that other party (i.e. the tour operator) nor to that of another supplier of services.(i.e. such as in this case, the airline)

Whilst it is unclear whether the TO or the airline was at fault in this case as they have both tried to blame each other, there is no provision within the law for the tour operator to pass the buck onto the supplier with regards to their liability. Even if the tour operator did tell the airline and it was the airline's fault that the passengers were left behind, under the Package travel regulations the TO still remains liable.

2005-05-01 13:09:34

With reference to the original query the plane did take off - or at least was pushing away from the stand - by the time 10con arrived at the AA check-in. And given that the desk had only just closed and regardless of whether Virgin had informed them or not, it does sound as if AA had done as much as possible to allow late passengers to check-in by keeping the desk open as late as possible. I fully agree that Virgin should pay compensation - after all this was a problem that stemmed from a delay to their flight due to there being no pilot immediately available for the flight but the idea that AA could be compelled to hold the flight for passengers that Virgin was late in delivering to them is risible and not something that I would ever want to see enforced as a matter of course. It's bad enough going through the rigmarole of everybody else sitting on the flight waiting for the last stragglers to respond to the final 'last call'. The idea that this would have to happen everytime someone's connecting flights were delayed would eventually make air travel intolerable. Who's to say whether or not there were passengers on the AA flight who had connecting flights to make too? The ramifications of making connecting flights wait for delayed flights carrying TO customers are enormous and would lead to greatly increased costs for all airlines - not just those who like Virgin can't get their act in order - and would result in even more irate passengers getting upset and angry with airline staff.

I am genuinely sorry that 10con had all the problems they had and had all this stress and anxiety spoiling what they no doubt hoped would be the perfect holiday and wedding but their issue is with Virgin who should cough up suitable compensation and the idea that AA could and should have been compelled by Virgin to delay their flight is a red herring.

SM

10con

2005-05-01 20:04:39

Sm -thanks for your comments, I agree with you entirely. The various issues are a red herring, the basic facts of the matter are that Virgin should cough up, surely they are aware that they take risks when using onward carriers and should have contingency plans in such cases. What is you opinion regarding their offer of 'compensation', ie 50% reduction on three flights? Why should we be under obligation to give them even more money to receive this 'compensation'?

fallenangel

2005-05-02 07:08:33

The flight discount gesture is from VAA, not Virgin Holidays.

If you want anymore compensation as in your unused day, as we have suggested earlier in this thread, you must write to Virgin Holidays as they were your T/O.

VAA operate entirely seperately to Virgin Holidays and thefore you must address you request for compensation as such.

Its not hard to understand!

10con

2005-05-02 08:12:53

Fallen Angel - As mentioned in the earlier thread, I have already written to Virgin Holidays who have rejected entirely any offer of compensation as they are saying that VAA are responsible for the delay. VAA are not offering anything other than 50% off a further flight. If you had read my first comments, you would have seen this.

That's not hard to understand, is it?

mrsJ

2005-05-02 11:37:57

In that case, if you want to pursue it further, you need to either:

- put the matter in the hands of a solicitor and let them handle it; or

- write to Virgin again reminding them that under the PTR's they are liable to compensate you, not VAA, regardless of whose fault it was; and that in the absence of a fair offer of compensation being received from them within the next 28 days, you intend to sue them.

BRI-T

2005-05-09 09:15:02

VIRGIN HOLIDAYS

I had a similar experience last september going to mexico with virgin holidays/atlantic, but my AA connection was cancelled before we left heathrow as we eventually found out from AA. Yes virgin holidays and atlantic do lie all the time. I phoned virgin atlantic before we left heathrow to check that our AA connection was available, i was told yes it was. No it wasnt as i found out later at the AA desk at miami it was cancelled the day before, so i got a letter to prove it from them. The AA staff where most helpfull as they always are ( virgin take note). We were dumped in a airport hotel for 24hrs no food or drink allowance, which in the brochure it states you should receive.In miami virgin holidays/atlantic staff were rude and did not give a damm. Back home i wrote a letter via my travel agent (which you have to do) to virgin holdays to complain with all the relevent documentation and a request for £300 compensation for 1 lost night and our food and drink allowance. 4 weeks later it was rejected by virgin holidays saying that this sort of delay is nothing to do with them and at this time they will not compensate us. My agent asked me to write a letter to ABTA which i did via there website. They sent me a letter back advising me to go to arbitration and they would advise virgin holidays of my intention. I filled out the forms and sent my fee (£75) to arbitration and hey presto before arbitration had time to adjudicate my compensation arrived with my £75 fee in tow and a letter of apology. My insurance also paid out £80 for travel delay within 1 week, this problem with virgin holidays took 4 months. Dont give up your fight you the customer are right good look :lol:

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