This is not a complaint, more of a gripe in some ways. It is however very relevant to this part of the forum.
When a member asks for help we often read the comment what do the T&Cs or the brochure say.
We are looking at going to Spain next year visiting Granada, Cordoba; Seville etc. so have got the brochures.
What it says on the headline is not in most cases what it says in the fine print. Our original plan was to spend a week touring then a week on the coast.
Careful reading shows that much that we wish to do is not included in the price. The phrase "optional extra" seems to be standard. Dinner is included one day whilst the next it is not for example. What commonsense says should be included is not always so.
I do have sympathy with those who have a problem, yet I cannot help but feel that in some cases at least, the problem would not exist if people had spent a little more time reading, rather than be swept up in the hype of "you must see/visit.
Looking and possibly booking so far in front is a gamble. Things can and do change. For anyone browsing HT and reading this a few words of advice. Read through the archive - look at the problems others have had. It might help you avoid the same mistake.
fwh
I can agree with FWH. I'm a rep and if only folks would read their brochure, not just the small stuff in the back but the accomodation description too, a lot of heartache can be avoided.
For example, we have a hotel which is a 30 minuts walk from the beach. We make no bones about it and it is stated very clearly in the brochure description but time and time again I have to deal with complaints about it. The information is available to all either in the brochure and on the net and also to Travel Agents. It is very difficult to point out a silly oversight to an angry guest who will be made even more angry when you have to point out it is actually their mistake.
Of course there is often genuine reason for complaint and no rep wants unhappy guests in their hotels. My advice would be always, always speak to your rep. It is better to try to sort things out while you are there than to let it annoy you for 7/14 days until you get home. Sometimes it can be something that we can sort out in minutes, other times not. But give us a chance, thats why we are there.
Louise
For example, we have a hotel which is a 30 minuts walk from the beach. We make no bones about it and it is stated very clearly in the brochure description but time and time again I have to deal with complaints about it. The information is available to all either in the brochure and on the net and also to Travel Agents. It is very difficult to point out a silly oversight to an angry guest who will be made even more angry when you have to point out it is actually their mistake.
Of course there is often genuine reason for complaint and no rep wants unhappy guests in their hotels. My advice would be always, always speak to your rep. It is better to try to sort things out while you are there than to let it annoy you for 7/14 days until you get home. Sometimes it can be something that we can sort out in minutes, other times not. But give us a chance, thats why we are there.
Louise
I'm not sure that I completely agree with the comments from loubychew although the advice about seeing your rep or contacting them as soon as you are aware of a problem when at your resort is important.
Not everyone is able to look at and understand the small print in brochures in the way that most of us take for granted and therefore rely on the main information printed on the holiday page.Let me give you an example, in the First Choice brochure (october ed) May 2007 to April 2008 if you look at page 84 in huge letters taking up a third of the page it simply says " Everything really is included " yes that is a 1/3d of the page.
Really if you look at this a bit closer, you will find small * etc to show that extra costs are required.But not everyone will do that, they see a leading statment without anything along side saying there may be exceptions and take it at face value. I know of a few people who hate forms etc and don't really understand they have to look at the very small writing tucked away.
The producers of the brochure should really make all the conditions easy to see at a glance but they don't seem to want to do this.Most of us are aware that when advertising the ads should be honest so when they see something that says "everything really is included" why shouldn't they take it at face value
yes FWH this was a good subject to bring up but remember that not everyone has a computer at home and so may not get to know about the usually good advice found in this forum or have the advantage of finding out about their resort / hotel by a browse on google.
Not everyone is able to look at and understand the small print in brochures in the way that most of us take for granted and therefore rely on the main information printed on the holiday page.Let me give you an example, in the First Choice brochure (october ed) May 2007 to April 2008 if you look at page 84 in huge letters taking up a third of the page it simply says " Everything really is included " yes that is a 1/3d of the page.
Really if you look at this a bit closer, you will find small * etc to show that extra costs are required.But not everyone will do that, they see a leading statment without anything along side saying there may be exceptions and take it at face value. I know of a few people who hate forms etc and don't really understand they have to look at the very small writing tucked away.
The producers of the brochure should really make all the conditions easy to see at a glance but they don't seem to want to do this.Most of us are aware that when advertising the ads should be honest so when they see something that says "everything really is included" why shouldn't they take it at face value
yes FWH this was a good subject to bring up but remember that not everyone has a computer at home and so may not get to know about the usually good advice found in this forum or have the advantage of finding out about their resort / hotel by a browse on google.
Oh, I agree that brochures can be misleading - but sometimes people read the words, but translate them into something else! Many moons ago, I was enjoying a smashing holiday on Leros in the Dodecanese, but one family was (very vocally) disgruntled - why? Because they didn't want to go to Leros, they'd wanted to go to Kos. Fair enough, but they'd booked the Thomson then equivalent of the "Sundeal" - which the brochure clearly stated would be accommodation on Kos/Kalymnos or Leros..... Thankfully, the Thomson rep got them off the island, before I had to buy their ferry tickets for them!
Research, research and research is always the answer
Research, research and research is always the answer
I agree ,research,research,and more research is the Best way.
I always do this on our holidays as i think it part of the fun.
I try and get as much information as possible.
If people don't read what they are booking more fool them.
Its up to the person booking the holiday to make sure they know exactly what they are getting.
I always do this on our holidays as i think it part of the fun.
I try and get as much information as possible.
If people don't read what they are booking more fool them.
Its up to the person booking the holiday to make sure they know exactly what they are getting.
Hovis
You say:
I'm nowhere near as informed as a lot of good people who give advice on this website (and this forum in particular, such as fwh and Mike Cunliffe), but isn't the above statement a case of misleading advertisment?
Can First Choice really advertise in this way?
Generally on the subject of reading brochures, webpages etc, I can honestly say we have never been disappointed with a resort, hotel facilities or location or other aspect of our many holidays. This is probably due to the time we spend and care & attention we pay in our research before making a booking.
Polly
You say:
in the First Choice brochure (october ed) May 2007 to April 2008 if you look at page 84 in huge letters taking up a third of the page it simply says " Everything really is included " yes that is a 1/3d of the page.
Really if you look at this a bit closer, you will find small * etc to show that extra costs are required.
I'm nowhere near as informed as a lot of good people who give advice on this website (and this forum in particular, such as fwh and Mike Cunliffe), but isn't the above statement a case of misleading advertisment?
Can First Choice really advertise in this way?
Generally on the subject of reading brochures, webpages etc, I can honestly say we have never been disappointed with a resort, hotel facilities or location or other aspect of our many holidays. This is probably due to the time we spend and care & attention we pay in our research before making a booking.
Polly
Can First Choice really advertise in this way?
They can and do.
We have all seen the ads - Under £1,000 - The price is £999.99 - Yes you get One Penny change. But we still go round and tell everybody it cost less than an a thousand quid - real bargain.
People see what they want to see. Believe what they want to believe. That's life.
I spent a lot of time in marketing in various areas and the rule was always grab the potential customers attention.
The target of my post was those who come here on HT for the first time. If it gets their attention then it has served the purpose. If it helps them find a solution even better.
When I post information I often trawl back through other posts looking for help to find the answer. One reason why feedback is so important.
fwh
Planning your holiday - including reading ALL the small print - is part of the fun .......
fwh
I think your example;
is different to the one quoted by Hovis.
If they say a holiday is under £1000.00 and it costs £999.00 then that is a true and accurate statement.
But if they say:
but in smaller print go on to say:
isn't that a lie? And therefore a contravention of the Trades Description act or whatever covers this type of advertising?
This of course assumes that Hovis has accurately reported what the brochure says.
Polly
I think your example;
Under £1,000 - The price is £999.99
is different to the one quoted by Hovis.
If they say a holiday is under £1000.00 and it costs £999.00 then that is a true and accurate statement.
But if they say:
Everything really is included
but in smaller print go on to say:
you will find small * etc to show that extra costs are required
isn't that a lie? And therefore a contravention of the Trades Description act or whatever covers this type of advertising?
This of course assumes that Hovis has accurately reported what the brochure says.
Polly
I agree with your comment to some extent, however each of us has our own definition of what "Everything Else" is.
The problem is that people do fail to read the small print. It is to much bother. Personally I would rather the brochure was twice as thick and that the "small print" was not as small as it is.
They are marketing ploys and are within the law. That does not stop us all feeling that they are wrong. None of us can afford the time, cost or hassle to challenge them. We rely upon others to do what we should do. And that is why people have problems.
fwh
The problem is that people do fail to read the small print. It is to much bother. Personally I would rather the brochure was twice as thick and that the "small print" was not as small as it is.
They are marketing ploys and are within the law. That does not stop us all feeling that they are wrong. None of us can afford the time, cost or hassle to challenge them. We rely upon others to do what we should do. And that is why people have problems.
fwh
The small print does cover a hell of a lot and most folks just skip it.
TO's try to cover as many eventualities as possible and over the years these pages have started to include more and more.
I also agree that research is the key especially if you are going to a new destination.
Not having the internet is not a problem. All TA's have detailed info on accoms. Reps spend a huge amout of time at the beginning of each season filling in "Proprty Information Forms" which are fully accessible to the TA's in the high street and in call centres. This gets right down to the nitty gritty about the hotel and surrounding areas. They are the bain of our lives but totally necessary if we want our guests to be fully informed before they book.
Sadly, many folks get caught up in the excitement of booking a holiday and miss the important info made available in the brochure or given to them in the TA or over the phone.
As I said before, there are always genuine reasons to be unhappy with parts of a holiday and we take those very seriously in resort and will always try to help.
Louise
TO's try to cover as many eventualities as possible and over the years these pages have started to include more and more.
I also agree that research is the key especially if you are going to a new destination.
Not having the internet is not a problem. All TA's have detailed info on accoms. Reps spend a huge amout of time at the beginning of each season filling in "Proprty Information Forms" which are fully accessible to the TA's in the high street and in call centres. This gets right down to the nitty gritty about the hotel and surrounding areas. They are the bain of our lives but totally necessary if we want our guests to be fully informed before they book.
Sadly, many folks get caught up in the excitement of booking a holiday and miss the important info made available in the brochure or given to them in the TA or over the phone.
As I said before, there are always genuine reasons to be unhappy with parts of a holiday and we take those very seriously in resort and will always try to help.
Louise
fwh - good comment sense advise in your post.
Louise aka loubychew can a member of the public ask about these "Property information forms" when asking about a resort or hotel prior to booking a holiday or is all the information from them put into the brochures?
Hi most TA's should have up to date Gazetteers,these have all the hotels in them and also information about the area around the hotels + a map.
It was not my intention when I posted this to start a debate. Sorry Admin/Mods - but thanks for letting it run.
As I said it was a gripe about the lack of clear information in the brochure when trying to plan a "special holiday"
As it happens I got the renewal policy for the car today. When I checked the details, having changed insurance company, I found that it was not as described. I have sorted it but I have also lodged a complaint. What the website said and what it gave were two different things.
Many people complain about the same thing, yet when there have been complaints, it has, in many cases, not been due to that. It is all down to the small print. People just fail to read it. I have had an acknowledgement about my complaint that the website is incorrect. All to often it is not the brochure but the person complaining that has not read it.
Like many others in the past I have been there and done that. I have learnt my lesson. I now read the small print. I know it is a pain, but rather that, than waste my money on something that is not what I want.
If I am not happy I complain. My wife often wants to hide under the table.
I do have sympathy with a lot of the reps. I have been there when people have complained, quite nastily in some cases, when it is obvious that they have failed to read to read the small print.
As I said at the start, it was aimed at those who come on here with a problem, or better still before they have one. If they read and take note then they will have a great holiday. If they do not then they just might have a problem.
fwh
As I said it was a gripe about the lack of clear information in the brochure when trying to plan a "special holiday"
As it happens I got the renewal policy for the car today. When I checked the details, having changed insurance company, I found that it was not as described. I have sorted it but I have also lodged a complaint. What the website said and what it gave were two different things.
Many people complain about the same thing, yet when there have been complaints, it has, in many cases, not been due to that. It is all down to the small print. People just fail to read it. I have had an acknowledgement about my complaint that the website is incorrect. All to often it is not the brochure but the person complaining that has not read it.
Like many others in the past I have been there and done that. I have learnt my lesson. I now read the small print. I know it is a pain, but rather that, than waste my money on something that is not what I want.
If I am not happy I complain. My wife often wants to hide under the table.
I do have sympathy with a lot of the reps. I have been there when people have complained, quite nastily in some cases, when it is obvious that they have failed to read to read the small print.
As I said at the start, it was aimed at those who come on here with a problem, or better still before they have one. If they read and take note then they will have a great holiday. If they do not then they just might have a problem.
fwh
Missed this one ! Nice one fwh for reminding us all of some important aspects. Check the small print, don't be missled by the hype, research (cubed) (thanks samsung !).
Of course, the simplistic answer might be to book with companies that treat their customers with respect; who don't screw-up when it suits their profit margins to do so; who recompense when the brown stuff hits the fan, who correspond in a timely manner.......and who actually provide what their bloody brochures state...... try Royal Caribbean (Celebrity)cruise lines, Jet2/Easyjet (generally) and numerous other companies who rarely get slated on here, and avoid those that regularly feature on this site in the "hall of shame".
Mike
Of course, the simplistic answer might be to book with companies that treat their customers with respect; who don't screw-up when it suits their profit margins to do so; who recompense when the brown stuff hits the fan, who correspond in a timely manner.......and who actually provide what their bloody brochures state...... try Royal Caribbean (Celebrity)cruise lines, Jet2/Easyjet (generally) and numerous other companies who rarely get slated on here, and avoid those that regularly feature on this site in the "hall of shame".
Mike
fwh
A useful post and reminder to us all to do our homework first. I brought up something similar to this on the Turkey discussion forum last year (see below)
"I'm sure the Moderators have made this point on numerous occassions but why do some members book a holiday and then read reviews on their chosen accommodation/resort afterwards only to find negative comments that make them feel they've booked the wrong holiday?
If you are using this forum then it's very easy to read up on hotels, resorts etc before booking (as I'm sure most people do). We all want to feel we've booked the right holiday and asking for help or recommendations first is always a good idea even if all that happens is that you are pointed to a previous thread on your chosen topic.
I don't like reading members comments on bad holiday experiences, particularly in Turkey, where I have always had great holidays. However if members go to the bother of posting them then we should all take note. I'm aware that there will be the odd bad experience at a hotel that the majority of members have enjoyed but generally postings are made in an honest and helpful way. An hour or two reading the forums is time very well spent"
It still happens that people book first then check later. I hope your post makes more people go about booking having done their research first and reading the small print because that's were most of the information is.
A useful post and reminder to us all to do our homework first. I brought up something similar to this on the Turkey discussion forum last year (see below)
"I'm sure the Moderators have made this point on numerous occassions but why do some members book a holiday and then read reviews on their chosen accommodation/resort afterwards only to find negative comments that make them feel they've booked the wrong holiday?
If you are using this forum then it's very easy to read up on hotels, resorts etc before booking (as I'm sure most people do). We all want to feel we've booked the right holiday and asking for help or recommendations first is always a good idea even if all that happens is that you are pointed to a previous thread on your chosen topic.
I don't like reading members comments on bad holiday experiences, particularly in Turkey, where I have always had great holidays. However if members go to the bother of posting them then we should all take note. I'm aware that there will be the odd bad experience at a hotel that the majority of members have enjoyed but generally postings are made in an honest and helpful way. An hour or two reading the forums is time very well spent"
It still happens that people book first then check later. I hope your post makes more people go about booking having done their research first and reading the small print because that's were most of the information is.
The comment above about FC saying that everything is included is because they don't give you a price and then say "on top of that you have to pay x amount per person for inflight meals, x amount for transfers & another x amount if you want to have more than 12kgs of luggage allowance"
I think the only extras now are the new tax levy added by the government.
I went on holiday a few years ago with Airtours and it was Allocation On Arrival to Cuba. Everyone who was on AOA was put in the same hotel. It wasn't a great hotel but for a £550 2 week holiday to Cuba it was great. So many people complained though saying it wasn't their idea of a 3* hotel. In the brochure there was a choice of about 6 hotels so they knew there was a possibility they could end up in this particular one. Of course they didn't get moved but instead of spending the holiday enjoying themselves, they just complained about everything.
My point is if you pay £550 to do an AOA, you get what you pay for.
I think the only extras now are the new tax levy added by the government.
I went on holiday a few years ago with Airtours and it was Allocation On Arrival to Cuba. Everyone who was on AOA was put in the same hotel. It wasn't a great hotel but for a £550 2 week holiday to Cuba it was great. So many people complained though saying it wasn't their idea of a 3* hotel. In the brochure there was a choice of about 6 hotels so they knew there was a possibility they could end up in this particular one. Of course they didn't get moved but instead of spending the holiday enjoying themselves, they just complained about everything.
My point is if you pay £550 to do an AOA, you get what you pay for.
Property Information Forms as we call them contain as I said the nitty gritty. For example, does the accom suffer from aircraft noise, are there excessive steps, it it wheelchair friendly are there any eyesores. We also have to include how far in walking distance to the nearest beach, shops, facilities, hospital, pharmacy etc etc. They are very indepth.
I think, like Samsung says, they are available in the form of the Gazatteer in the TA's shop but you would probably have to actually ask to see it.
Louise
I think, like Samsung says, they are available in the form of the Gazatteer in the TA's shop but you would probably have to actually ask to see it.
Louise
The Gazetteer is usually under the T/A desk and you normally have to ask to view it. Virgin.net used to have the directory listed but since they've shifted to virginmedia I can't see it.
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