There was a very sad story in the Mirror the other day about a boat that was "cruelly cast adrift" in the sea going between Senegal and the Canaries which showed the story in a different light. Apparently the guys had been charged £850 to travel, and they starved and "baked" to death in the middle of the ocean.
I'm not saying that illegal immigrants are right or wrong, but I think that the real blame lies with the people who transport them. The article really highlights that significantly, as well as adding a humanitarian angle to the "crisis".
However, lets not forget that public opinion and economic realities are often very different. For a homegrown example, whilst areas around the "Chunnel" are overrun with immigrants, areas facing a depleting number of 20-30s (due to urbanisation aged 20-30 and counterurbanisation at 40+) these immigrants are necessary to boost manpower within industry. We can only assume all workers rely on the welfare state when they are not given the ability to work.
Mazzza, did you see the bit that sanji wrote about the mafiosa that trade in humans? ..sadly the story in the Mirror is only a small percentage of people. Many hundreds of people don't survive the journey..
Public opinion only is really considered when there is money at stake, that is the real crux of the matter. If the canaries weren't such a big tourist area with squillions of euro's a year turnover, nobody would give a stuff what happened to the immigrants. it is only such a big issue here because of the fact that benefits are being handed out like smarties to them yet deserving people who are already resident can't get them, houses are given away yet there are umpteen homeless on the streets of britain and i could go on..but i don't want it to sound like a racist nationalistic rant
(which it is not).. i would support anyone who wants to work to work..but i wouldn't want them to become trapped in a job that leads them to die like the tragic chinese cockle pickers..and in the canaries.. if people start staying away in droves through fear of being robbed etc.. the authorities will soon take tougher action.
Public opinion only is really considered when there is money at stake, that is the real crux of the matter. If the canaries weren't such a big tourist area with squillions of euro's a year turnover, nobody would give a stuff what happened to the immigrants. it is only such a big issue here because of the fact that benefits are being handed out like smarties to them yet deserving people who are already resident can't get them, houses are given away yet there are umpteen homeless on the streets of britain and i could go on..but i don't want it to sound like a racist nationalistic rant
(which it is not).. i would support anyone who wants to work to work..but i wouldn't want them to become trapped in a job that leads them to die like the tragic chinese cockle pickers..and in the canaries.. if people start staying away in droves through fear of being robbed etc.. the authorities will soon take tougher action.
Hiya Mazzza.
Immigration is accepted by the Spanish Government as necessary for their economy, and the Prime Minister has stated this in the last few days, illegal immigration is not.
Anyone coming into Spain in possession of the necessary paperwork will be welcomed, however, to invade a group of Islands illegally, is just not on.
Again, we must ask ourselves where did they manage to pull £850.00 from, ? when there are some people in this country who cannot put £80.50 together and the majority of the Senegalese are unemployed, have not been paid by the government for working in the peanut farms and the fishing industry is down the pan.?
I'm not wanting to discuss the rights and wrongs of illegal immigrants either, I just wanted to keep people informed of the situation, as it arises each day within the Canary Islands, but, you may find these articles interesting to read.
CLICK HERE HERE and HERE
I`ve just picked this up from my link to the Spanish news and I`ll referred you back to one of my comments from an earlier post
http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L01687937
Sanji x
Immigration is accepted by the Spanish Government as necessary for their economy, and the Prime Minister has stated this in the last few days, illegal immigration is not.
Anyone coming into Spain in possession of the necessary paperwork will be welcomed, however, to invade a group of Islands illegally, is just not on.
Again, we must ask ourselves where did they manage to pull £850.00 from, ? when there are some people in this country who cannot put £80.50 together and the majority of the Senegalese are unemployed, have not been paid by the government for working in the peanut farms and the fishing industry is down the pan.?
I'm not wanting to discuss the rights and wrongs of illegal immigrants either, I just wanted to keep people informed of the situation, as it arises each day within the Canary Islands, but, you may find these articles interesting to read.
CLICK HERE HERE and HERE
I`ve just picked this up from my link to the Spanish news and I`ll referred you back to one of my comments from an earlier post
http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L01687937
Sanji x
-
Edited by
Sanji
2006-06-01 14:45:52
I think you will find that the original habitants of the Canary Islands were the Guanches, who were tall, white skinned, blue/grey eyed, blonde and bearded.
Which is the basis for the Moroccan Berber theory. Berbers are to be found throughout North Africa and, yes, they are taller than their settled neighbours and fair skinned, often so fair that many of them are blue-eyed and blonde. It's what makes them visually distinguishable from those of Arabic stock. And the men at least are often bearded :-)
As for the sea crossing, well Morocco is only approx 100kms (65miles) from the nearest of the Canary Islands, close enough for golden sand from the Sahara to be blown in on the wind as I have experienced. It's the sort of distance that the early Celts were able to easily cross in very basic boats between Scotland and Ireland. But north Africans in the form of the Carthaginians were very sophisticated boatbuilders and seamen, long before the growth of the Roman Empire they not only had an empire that included most of North Africa and the Iberian penisular but a navy that the dominated the Mediterrean. The Romans weren't able to establish their empire until they learnt to build boats as good as the Carthaginian ones and build a navy that could defeat them. A 65 mile voyage would be nothing for large sea-going vessels of the strength and speed that are known to have existed throughout North Africa under the Carthaginians. They also demonstrated that they were a civilisation capable of building large structures too. As were many other civilisations in pre-colonial era Africa including the Egyptians, North Africans through and through and pyramid builders par-excellence too.
The fact that the Egyptians and Carthaginians weren't black Africans doesn't make them any less African and, anyway, I think that we need to move on from the idea that Black Africa prior to colonisation wasn't capable of producing civilisations that could rival many in Europe at the equivalent time. The Benin in Nigeria built large cities and ruled over a large empire in west Africa. Dan Cruikshanks recent BBC series visited numerous historic sites that included far more sophisticated structures than anything discovered in the Canaries to date. Which in some ways also fits in with the Berber theory - as nomads they probably had little interest building big substantial cities. And there are some who argue that modern day Berbers are possibly the descendants of the Carthaginians, forced into a nomadic lifesyle after their defeat by the Romans who so comprehensively trashed their civilisation so as to reinforce their position as rulers over the whole of the Mediterranean area. Had the Canaries otiginally been settled by migrants from further south in Africa we might well have had some really interesting archealogical sites to visit there now.
SM
ta for the history lesson SM.. are there not some caves in the canaries with paintings in that are truly ancient? and also, haven't historians over the years linked the canaries with the lost atlantis civilisation? As far as Lanza goes, the first recorded contact with a european civilisation was in 1312 when a sailor from genoa landed there and named the island and over the following centuries it was left to the french, arabs, english and dutch to plunder as they wished... but i digress. i think if you look back in history far enough, every country anywhere has been invaded and conquered by someone else and we are all a mish mash of descendants from those days. The history of the islands ( which is interesting) however, has nothing to do with today's situation.
getting back onto topic, the problem is the invasion of masses of illegal immigrants and how it is affecting life in the canary islands... i am very interested in it and am keen to know how it develops.
getting back onto topic, the problem is the invasion of masses of illegal immigrants and how it is affecting life in the canary islands... i am very interested in it and am keen to know how it develops.
The fact that the Egyptians and Carthaginians weren't black Africans doesn't make them any less African and, anyway, I think that we need to move on from the idea that Black Africa prior to colonisation wasn't capable of producing civilisations that could rival many in Europe at the equivalent time
No, I think it is you that needs to move on.
The Berbers were a nomadic tribe who were farmers and shepherds, when the Arabs invaded Nothern Africa the Berbers were driven south.
There is no evidence to suggest that they were sea faring people or that they had ships.
I was well aware that the Berbers showed the same traits as the Guanches, and scientists examing the Y chromosome of the Berbers have been able to establish that they were an hybrid breed, possibly with Nordic genes, hence the traits that they showed.
The only way they could have got to the Canary Islands was by being taken there as slaves or dumped as prisoners.
Today, archaeological and ethnographic studies have led most scholars to accept the view that the pre-colonial population of the Canaries were descendants of North African Berber tribes who lived in the Atlas region and started arriving in the Canaries by sea c. 1000 BC. Two main problems remain to be solved in this field, though. Firstly, there is no archaeological or historical evidence to prove that either the Berber tribes of the Atlas Mountains or the Canarian pre-colonial population had any knowledge or made any use whatsoever of navigation techniques. This is particularly problematic considering that only the peak of Tenerife is visible from the African coast on the very clearest of days and the currents around the islands tend to lead the boats southwest and west, past the archipelago and into the Atlantic Ocean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canery_islands
I`m not interested in the past, people are wanting to know what is happening now and I do not need a history lesson.
You have thrown this thread off topic once again.
SanJi x
getting back on topic.....sanji do you have an access to information as to any increase in levels of crime on the islands that can be proven to be linked with the illegals? Are there also any figures for the numbers of immigrants that actually manage to stay on the islands and integrate into society or are they just housed like the cambodian refugees were in this country in the 70's ( ie dumped somwhere and told they will be re housed and they are still in the same block of flats in sheffield 30 odd years later)..i did read a post that some were dumped in a village in tenerife and now the locals cannot go out for fear of being burgled..the whole place could fast become a melting pot...
Have any of them landed in San Borondon yet? That would be interesting Perhaps the Spanish govenment should set up a colony for immigrants on the 'Eighth' island...
Perhaps the Spanish govenment should set up a colony for immigrants on the 'Eighth' island...
Val and Rob in relation to crime statistics, don't forget that often an apparent rise in crime is caused by a police crackdown. For example, "drink driving has increased since the 80's" can be argued that more people have been tested.
As for the situation, I wasn't really arguing one way or the other. If anything is at fault I think it's world economy and the reliance of a tourist industry in many countries. It is the rich exploiting the poor; but we don't think we're rich, and we end up feeling pretty morally superior if we bung them a couple of euro/lev/etc/etc, which in turn makes their economy more dependant.
An example of the dependency in this country is the food service industry where waiters don't get paid nearly enough as they should, but it's made up with tips. OK, it guarantees better service, but what if nobody tips? You'd feel guilty not to, if you knew that the waiter's family relied on that 15% !
So in conclusion, I blame global economy, and I can write a manifest on how to change the world, but that's probably because I am young and therefore allowed to be idealistic.
As for the situation, I wasn't really arguing one way or the other. If anything is at fault I think it's world economy and the reliance of a tourist industry in many countries. It is the rich exploiting the poor; but we don't think we're rich, and we end up feeling pretty morally superior if we bung them a couple of euro/lev/etc/etc, which in turn makes their economy more dependant.
An example of the dependency in this country is the food service industry where waiters don't get paid nearly enough as they should, but it's made up with tips. OK, it guarantees better service, but what if nobody tips? You'd feel guilty not to, if you knew that the waiter's family relied on that 15% !
So in conclusion, I blame global economy, and I can write a manifest on how to change the world, but that's probably because I am young and therefore allowed to be idealistic.
Hi Val.
I don't know about the Canaries being a melting pot, Mainland Spain is like a time bomb with the fuse already lit. we now have Madrid(city) going ballistic over the volume of immigrants that they have received.
I have no figures at this moment regarding crime in the Canaries, I think that will be a case of "time will tell" in the future.
Illegal immigrants were given papers of residency in Spain and 20,000 illegals benefited last year in the Canary Islands alone, as a result of the present Spanish Governments policy.
Whether they stayed in the Canaries I don't know, unless I search for the figures of the individual Islands inhabitants from previous years.
As far as I can attain, they are being held in old army barracks that have been turned into centres of internamiento up and down the Canary Islands, and as they fill up, then they are shipped out to mainland Spain to make room for the new arrivals.
I personally, was interested to find information on where in mainland Spain they were being transferred too, and the ones who were flown home yesterday, only had days to go before freedom.
These are the figures/location of where the 5,400 have been dispersed in mainland Spain.
3,527 to Madrid .....you can understand why Madrid is
880 to Malaga
350 to Cataluna
282 to Murcia
120 to Algeciras
241 to Valencia
With reference to the ones who have gone to a village. HERE is the link.
cyberspacekadette nice one
Mazzza
I could write a thesis and that`s because I`m old and a realist.
Sanji x
the whole place could fast become a melting pot..
I don't know about the Canaries being a melting pot, Mainland Spain is like a time bomb with the fuse already lit.
we now have Madrid(city) going ballistic over the volume of immigrants that they have received.I have no figures at this moment regarding crime in the Canaries, I think that will be a case of "time will tell" in the future.
Illegal immigrants were given papers of residency in Spain and 20,000 illegals benefited last year in the Canary Islands alone, as a result of the present Spanish Governments policy.
Whether they stayed in the Canaries I don't know, unless I search for the figures of the individual Islands inhabitants from previous years.
As far as I can attain, they are being held in old army barracks that have been turned into centres of internamiento up and down the Canary Islands, and as they fill up, then they are shipped out to mainland Spain to make room for the new arrivals.
I personally, was interested to find information on where in mainland Spain they were being transferred too, and the ones who were flown home yesterday, only had days to go before freedom.
These are the figures/location of where the 5,400 have been dispersed in mainland Spain.
3,527 to Madrid .....you can understand why Madrid is
880 to Malaga
350 to Cataluna
282 to Murcia
120 to Algeciras
241 to Valencia
With reference to the ones who have gone to a village. HERE is the link.
cyberspacekadette nice one
Mazzza
So in conclusion, I blame global economy, and I can write a manifest on how to change the world, but that's probably because I am young and therefore allowed to be idealistic.
I could write a thesis and that`s because I`m old and a realist.
Sanji x
you are both right Sanji and Mazzza....when we are young we think we can conquer and influence the world.. when we are old we become so cynical and hardened as reality bites and we realise there is nothing we can do to change anything on a big scale!
I read the article sanji, thanks for that.. i was more suprised to find that the biggest fear was illness rather than crime...i did find that rather sad. As the saying goes, fear brings contempt...
a point that Rob made to me was has anyone noticed that the majority of illegals are men, who have most probably abandoned their wives and kids back in Africa, taken the £800 or whatever it costs to sail over..and meanwhile their wife and kids are left in even more poverty with even less chance of breaking the cycle. If those blokes were really trying to help their families etc, they would have saved the £800 and stayed behind to use the money for better things. Most of those men will not return to their families, nor will their families join them. Rob described these men as chancers/mercenaries( well he said something a little harsher that i could not possibly repeat here!). He wonders how many of them will become looky looky men!
On a more serious note...crime figures are bound to rise..if these people cannot find a means of employment, they will starve..and human survival instinct tell you that you will do whatever you have to survive..so stealing food becomes acceptable..and this leads to stealing other things..and then we might find the level of assaults rises as tension spreads ( they are all crimes) and so on.
On a humanitarian note ( and i am a caring person) what fate do some of these people get sent back to if they are repatriated back to country of origin? yep, Cyberspacekadette had the right idea!
I read the article sanji, thanks for that.. i was more suprised to find that the biggest fear was illness rather than crime...i did find that rather sad. As the saying goes, fear brings contempt...
a point that Rob made to me was has anyone noticed that the majority of illegals are men, who have most probably abandoned their wives and kids back in Africa, taken the £800 or whatever it costs to sail over..and meanwhile their wife and kids are left in even more poverty with even less chance of breaking the cycle. If those blokes were really trying to help their families etc, they would have saved the £800 and stayed behind to use the money for better things. Most of those men will not return to their families, nor will their families join them. Rob described these men as chancers/mercenaries( well he said something a little harsher that i could not possibly repeat here!). He wonders how many of them will become looky looky men!
On a more serious note...crime figures are bound to rise..if these people cannot find a means of employment, they will starve..and human survival instinct tell you that you will do whatever you have to survive..so stealing food becomes acceptable..and this leads to stealing other things..and then we might find the level of assaults rises as tension spreads ( they are all crimes) and so on.
On a humanitarian note ( and i am a caring person) what fate do some of these people get sent back to if they are repatriated back to country of origin? yep, Cyberspacekadette had the right idea!
Some friends of ours have just returned from LC and they were telling us that they were quite shocked that while they were there, they saw a small boat arrive cram packed with illegals. They said a boat was sent out to meet this vessel and it was escorted into the harbour and that many of the people needed medical attention. They said they weren't sure, as they were only watching from a bit of a distance, but they thought there was a young child on board?? what a perilous journey to make anyway, never mind with a small child..
Sanji, are there any figures for children entering as illegals or is it just one figure that is given out?
Sanji, are there any figures for children entering as illegals or is it just one figure that is given out?
did anyone see the news report last night ( or rather it was about midnightish when i saw it) about the last rickety boatload of immigrants arriving in i think it was galletta the other day?
this boat was just 13 ft long, a wooden rowing boat, the kind you see in a local park to scoot across the lake on, and it had 88 illegals packed into it. It had sailed from Chad, been in the water for days and all of the immigrants were so ill that when the boat eventually washed up in LC they just collapsed onto the beach and all the holiday makers rushed to help them. The guarda collected them all up and then they were took to a detention centre..but the figures that i think it was the governor of tenerife or someone like that released showed that so far this year, there have been 11,000 arrive ( and for the whole of last year the figure was something like 5471) and they have found over 1000 bodies that have perished along the way...
check out the pictures and the full report on skynews.com
if these guys national identities can't be traced ( and it is not as if they have any papers) they get released. No wonder it is being described as the back door into Europe....
this boat was just 13 ft long, a wooden rowing boat, the kind you see in a local park to scoot across the lake on, and it had 88 illegals packed into it. It had sailed from Chad, been in the water for days and all of the immigrants were so ill that when the boat eventually washed up in LC they just collapsed onto the beach and all the holiday makers rushed to help them. The guarda collected them all up and then they were took to a detention centre..but the figures that i think it was the governor of tenerife or someone like that released showed that so far this year, there have been 11,000 arrive ( and for the whole of last year the figure was something like 5471) and they have found over 1000 bodies that have perished along the way...
check out the pictures and the full report on skynews.com
if these guys national identities can't be traced ( and it is not as if they have any papers) they get released. No wonder it is being described as the back door into Europe....
there was also a big article in the daily mail yesterday about this and a story on there website here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=398462&in_page_id=1811
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=398462&in_page_id=1811
Val and Rob
According to another report I read about the boat arriving and the tourists helping them out, that was the third boat that had arrived that day!
According to another report I read about the boat arriving and the tourists helping them out, that was the third boat that had arrived that day!
Saw the news article about it too and also read about it here
http://www.tenerifenews.com/cms//front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=29&idart=4595
http://www.tenerifenews.com/cms//front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=29&idart=4595
No wonder it is being described as the back door into Europe....
It is the back door of Europe make no mistake about that, and whilst I am human and do not like to see another human being suffer, this story of illegals landing on the Canary Islands is now one that has hardened the Spanish people and the Canarians.
At the height of the saga when journalists and TV crews were out there to witness the daily landings, the government wanted the issue to be reported so that aid in the form of money and boat/helicopter patrols could be justified by members of the EU.....the government of the Canary Islands also didn`t want too much coverage because of what he described as "collateral damage" to the Islands and the tourist industry.
Patrols off the West African coast by member EU states were suppose to start on July 25th....they obviously haven`t got their act together.
Ask anyone in Madrid what they think of illegals and I don`t think you will get the answer that you are expecting.
SanJi x
There are more and more making for tenerife and Gran Canaria because the Spanish navy and Guardia have pretty well covered Fuerteventura`s coastline now, which was previously the favoured landing site,although that island simply cant handle them and the locals are well hacked off with them and kicked up a huge El Stinko so something got done.
this boat was just 13 ft long, a wooden rowing boat, the kind you see in a local park to scoot across the lake on, and it had 88 illegals packed into it
88! Are you sure??? A 13' boat would have a Beam of what....6' which pretty much means they'd have to have stood on each others shoulders to fit, let alone worry about balance and with that weight keeping the thing afloat!
Is this immigration thing having an effect on the purchase of property and holiday homes as every week I hear of a friend of a friend who's buying a villa somewhere in Spain. I'd be very wary.
yep scaramooch.. there were 88 crammed onto it.. and if i remember rightly, a number of them were near death upon arrival at Tenerife.. in fact i read that 9 had later died. I saw the news footage and some of these people had lost all feelings in their legs they had been so cramped for so long and of course all were dehydrated and suffering from exposure to the elements.
I did also read in an article mentioned above by Jimdf and alamara was correct in that it was the third boat to arrive that day... this really is human misery on a large scale. Sanji is right, nobody wants to see another human suffer, but i am aware the Spanish and the native Canarians are getting somewhat fed up with the situation.
I suspect that the influx of immigrants on this scale is also linked to the increase in petty crime we keep hearing about.
Sanji.. do you know if any of them make it as far as Lanza?
I did also read in an article mentioned above by Jimdf and alamara was correct in that it was the third boat to arrive that day... this really is human misery on a large scale. Sanji is right, nobody wants to see another human suffer, but i am aware the Spanish and the native Canarians are getting somewhat fed up with the situation.
I suspect that the influx of immigrants on this scale is also linked to the increase in petty crime we keep hearing about.
Sanji.. do you know if any of them make it as far as Lanza?
Similar Topics