Hi Sanji, i was looking at Robin Hood's main website, and the airport looks really nice and modern , i also saw their masterplan which unbelievable has a lot of backing and positive feedback from locals , i'm sure some airports could only dream of this level of acceptance!! although they anticipate passengers numbers of 6m plus in 2016 when they have about 1m currently , its hard to see how they will generate this extra with prices like you have quoted. If there is a massive investment perhaps airlines will be offered special deals to offer good flight programs and more realistic flight costs. Perhaps other local airports might not get permission to expand and then Robin Hood becomes more attractive to airlines and passengers in the future?

From the prices you have shown it appears that the airlines have the monopoly in what they offer their customers in terms of choice of airport and flight costs, you are presently left with no real choice other than going from Manchester. people expect to pay a bit extra for convenience but at those prices you would be expecting business class configuration.

Ooo So much to talk about.
Steve.
I understand what you are saying, Thomson do have a "hub" (whatever that implies) at Doncaster Airport.
However, things just don't seem right here and I'll try and make this brief.
A couple of years ago I arrived at the airport for an early flight to Malaga, to be told that the flight had been changed/cancelled/diverted ? to Coventry.
I was informed that the plane had been grounded for 80 hours in Spain the day/evening before.
At precisely 7 am when we should have flown, two double-decker buses roll up to take us on the 2-hour journey to Coventry, where after stopping at a hotel for breakfast, we were dumped in Coventry's disgusting excuse of an International Airport until 5pm.

Now, the very first thing that the pilot or second- in- command said over the system was.....
"I know it's been a stressful day and please accept our apologises blah, blah, blah,....... but don't take it out on the cabin crew, who have come in on their day off to get you to Malaga." fair comment.
However, there were no planes at Coventry, none took off or landed during that afternoon, apart from another plane scheduled to take off 10 mins after we eventually took off, ironically also to Malaga.
So, that empty plane and crew had been plucked from somewhere in the country to land at Coventry, to take us to Malaga.

The burning question is... why did they have to take us to Coventry, when the empty plane and new crew could have quite easily landed at Doncaster, and we could have been taken to a nice posh hotel on the outskirts of Donny, (we do have them -said jokingly ) instead of the Hilton outside Coventry.?
Donny doesn't have such a tight schedule that it couldn't accommodate an extra plane landing, and if it takes 2 hours in a bus between Donny and Coventry, just how much time and fuel would it take for an empty plane to go to Doncaster, from whichever direction or airport that they mustered up the replacement plane from.?

Could it be, that the landing fees at Donny are/were more expensive than Coventry, and hiring 2 double- decker buses to take us across the country, was cheaper and for Thomson's benefit, and not for mine or Robin Hood Airport.?

Sanji

I was under the impression that there were 2 737s based at Donny or maybe 3 it was posted on the Thomson Airways thread which Thomson planes were based at the airports Thomson Airways use.

Hi Andy
On the face of it, Robin Hood Airport looks all set to expand into the future, but behind the façade, it's a mess of bumbling short sighted, tunnel vision, greedy and I dare say some selfish stupid people, who have got their heads firmly buried in the recessional sand, and they think that by some divine intervention, all the problems of the failing airport, will suddenly disappear if they do nothing and just wait.

There are quite a few things "¦.
Peel Holdings who at present own Manchester, Liverpool, Durham Tees, and Doncaster airports, have decided to sell 49% of the shares of Robin Hood Airport because they want to raise some money to invest in Liverpool Airport.
This would still leave them as the major shareholder, and I can't see too many people coming forward at this moment in time, to buy any shares in the airport where the passenger numbers are falling, the commitment to the airport is fine on paper, but little action actually takes place, and there's plenty of people (investors) who can't put their money where their mouth is"¦.
IMO: Peel Holdings are just trying to jump a sinking ship, but still want to keep a lifeboat in case the storm at Donny doesn't turn out as bad as they expected.

The proposed new link road connecting the M18 with the airport, which would make the airport more accessible and much easier for those people outside of South Yorkshire, is totally bogged down in lack of finance and red tape, and the obstacles around the planning permission have delayed it and may even halt it"¦..Investors are now having second thoughts whether or not it's a good idea, and will take their money elsewhere"¦. It's costing £163 million and construction won't even start until 2013.

If you look at South Yorkshire, which consists of Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster and Barnsley, we have a population of 1.29 million people, but there's the potential to pull in passengers from the surrounding boroughs, like, North Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire and Derbyshire.
The airport is only 7 miles from Doncaster town centre, with bus links running between the airport and Donny Interchange, and at one point they were talking about building a railway station at Robin Hood, which would connect via Doncaster to the main railway network running the length of the country from Edinburgh to Kings Cross.

The airport applied for a licence to have a small number of night cargo flights a week"¦.. at the moment, there are restrictions on flights between 11pm and 7am.
This would generate revenue to the airport/area and create jobs, including the building of a freight depot nearby"¦"¦but we have the same selfish people who tried to stop the airport being built, all moaning and objecting, so that's bogged down in dispute with Doncaster Council.

The statistics for 2008 show that the passenger numbers are falling from when they peaked over 1 million in 2007, and I fully expect when the 2009 figures are released they will have dropped even further, but does anyone ever stop to think and lift their heads out of the sand to ask "¦Why.?
Do they ever stop to think that it may be due to the lack of flights and the extortionate prices being charged, and then pursue the reasons why there's a lack of flights etc, instead of now blaming the recession.?

The business's pleaded with the council to give them some concessions for 5 years until the airport got established and Donny Council told them to "get stuffed".
The Council/Airport dropped thousands upon thousands of leaflets in every householder's letterbox promoting the airport, and when people looked at the flights/prices, they said, "get stuffed" and put the leaflets straight into the dustbin.

Sanji

Hello,
Am reading with Interest the Debate regarding Robin hood Airport.
We Live Three Minutes from the airport, we enjoy Travelling, but do not use Doncaster because of the Prices,

eg. We are flying from Birmingham 21st December to Gran Canaria, Four adults just over 750.00 for Flight.
Same day Flying from Doncaster over 1500.00 so a trip to Birmingham is certainly worth it for us.
We would like to use the Airport more but no-one would pay these Prices just for the convenience of living locally.
We use Birmingham Manchester and have even flown from Newcastle, and we save Hundreds of Pounds.

It is a shame but Thomsons are pricing the Flights at ridiculous rates.

Hi Sanji,
When I put about the supplements from Donny I did not realise you were looking at flight only,sorry I was talking about package holidays by Thomsons,massive difference on the prices for flight only?? maybe greedy Thomson Airways

Hi qatarman
No problem....Maybe greedy Thomson.? No comment.

Hello Finningley.
Welcome to HT
You live 3 MINUTES away and go to Brimingham, Manchester and Newcastle....
Enough said and point proven, thank you

Sanji

Hi sanji
Glad you agree, As a Family we are in the lucky position to be able to go on frequent holidays.
It is a shame that a airport which is very local, is not usuable because of the expensive prices charged.

Hopefully this will change because several people i have spoken to have the same opinion.

Thanks.

Hi Finningley1 and Sanji

We live in Sheffield so Doncaster is the closest/easiest to get to. But we don't use it because we can get flights much cheaper from Manchester or Leeds Bradford. And some of the flight times from/to Doncaster are so late that you arrive in the middle of the night. I think the airlines and the airport management need to have a rethink of their current arrangements and prices.

Jock.

Sanji I think alot of passengers have flown previously from Robin Hood and have encountered problems that they don`t want to again. I flew out in the first year of Robin Hood opening, I flew in August (peak season) and didn`t enounter any problems, parking was fine lots of spaces. We flew again next April and we got caught up in a long queue at check in, we had had a meal before in the Weatherspoons pub up stairs and when we came down we couldn`t belive the queue. My oh was very upset about this as we had arrived 4 hours before to avoid a queue. We flew again in the August again no hicups. This April was our last time and the worst due to the parking charges we encountered. We won`t fly from Doncaster again. Their customer services are inadaquate.

I think if it does expand it will sink it`s self, it can`t cope at the moment with the passengers it has already.

As for prices of flights Thomsons are very expensive at the moment, they may bring their prices down when they start having sales. I have done a few diy holidays inthe last few years and prices with most of the flight opperators are high at the moment, they tend to bring them down around December as most folks are spending thier money on Christmas.

I think if it does expand it will sink it`s self, it can`t cope at the moment with the passengers it has already.

Hi Christine.
I know you had problems with car parking, but leaving the problems of the car parking issue to one side, because there is enough land surrounding the airport that can be made into car parks in the future"¦.I know that's no consolation to you and I don't wish to appear unsympathetic or appear like I'm just trying to make an argument, I'm not, I'm just having a conversation because I want Donny to survive, and I strongly believe in supporting local enterprises. "¦.but"¦..

The most tragic thing about DSA, is that they do have the facilities to expand and cope with more passengers.
The queues are not created by the lack of check-in desks, they are created by the lack of personnel manning them, and of having just 2 desks open and 10 stood idle, and of course not opening the desks earlier, which is saving money by not paying staff another hour's wages.
The lack of facilities upstairs is because the units are empty, why? the units are there for such people like "Boots" or other food outlets to occupy, but what are they being charged to rent such floor space, when at the moment the airport is handling less than 10 flights a day?
This is where the business concessions would have helped until the airport got on its feet, and the flow of passengers were coming through the doors all day long.

I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about radar and other aviation equipment and maybe I'll ask Darren to explain, but, I do know that Doncaster now has its own radar, whereas before it was controlled by Liverpool.
The airport has the "CATS111" system, which allows the planes to land in poor visibility and the plane is guided in, on autopilot.
DSA is the only airport in the UK that has 5 working hangers, but they are all not being used.
The new link road from the M18 is just one of the problems, because the other approach from Donny needs the "White Rose Way" widening.

If you can cast your mind back nearly 2 years ago in the CB forum, when I was looking at flights to Alicante from Donny, and Thomson were charging over £600, and the price never dropped, but I'd paid half that price by some fortunate timing 10 months earlier, and it's still the same today because this week I did commit myself and I stopped looking around at the prices, and booked a flight via Monarch from Manchester to Malaga for next June, and even after CC charges the total is £323.95. for 2 persons return.

Thomson will have to put a mega sale on of astounding reductions on their current price of £643.96, plus CC charges, to compete with the prices at Manchester for the same flight times, on the same day"¦.
I don't like the journey to Manchester and I won't enjoy going there in June, but all it's costing me, is £50 more in a taxi, so that's some saving that cannot be sniffed at, and once again Robin Hood will miss out on another 2 potential customers.

If you times that by lots of people, you can see why the passenger numbers are falling, and it's no use just blaming the recession, because we all know about the recession and all the airports are in the same situation of trying to survive during hard times.
IMO: It needs new management and a new approach because Peel Holdings are basically property developers and asset strippers.
IMO: They couldn't organise a pee up in a brewery and you only have to look at Durham Tees Airport to see how that's been decimated.

Sanji
PS: And I nearly forgot about the clowns performing in Doncaster Council.

sanji wrote:

The airport has the "CATS111" system

Details of the different Instrument Landing System (ILS) catagories are detailed here. Pilots also need to be certified to use and operate at that level.

Darren

Thanks Darren, I had an ignorant simplistic idea of what it means.
Do all airports in the UK have this system or just a few.? I expect it has cost a few bob to install.

Sanji

sanji,

All major airports operate an ILS system, but not all have the higher catagories. It does cost rather a lot! Manchester is having the system on runway 23R replaced at the moment and I've heard it's well in to six figures.

Darren

Thanks once again Darren.
I wouldn't have considered DSA as a major airport. EG: Manchester, Birmingham, Heathrow & Gatwick yes, but not DSA, so they must have been planning for the future and hoping to rank with the big boys.
So, what are they going to do,? it's no use having all these facilities and no planes.

I read that DSA is losing more money ( I can't remember if that's in a day or a month), than HUY loses in a year....how much longer will it be allowed to go on.?

It's such a shame.

Sanji

sanji wrote:

So, what are they going to do,? it's no use having all these facilities and no planes.

The installation of equipment is normally subject to cost benefit analysis. For example, how many hours / days would the runway be unservicable and conditions below minimums if the required ILS wasn't available. When the cost of diverting flights exceeds that of installing the equipment and airlines stay clear of operating from the airport because of it, it generally gets installed. I'm not familiar with DSA, but I would imagine there's plenty of days per year when conditions require CatII & III operation so it's a case of if you don't have it, the runway might be unusable at certain times of the year. Airlines would generally not base aircraft there if that was the case. Although DSA isn't a majot airport, it's certainly not a minor airport and is an important regional. My local airport for example is only CatII equiped.

Darren

When the cost of diverting flights exceeds that of installing the equipment and airlines stay clear of operating from the airport because of it, it generally gets installed.

Mmm, now summat doesn't add up, because diverting to the surrounding airports is not a million miles away from DSA, and I can't see how DSA is hoping to have the market for diverted flights. IF the surrounding airports already have this ILS operating system....the number of flights (scheduled or charter) in/out of DSA is not many, so, they must have had ILS installed to hang onto what little flights they have, and not lose out by having them diverted.
Unless Thomson paid for it and that's why the prices are ridiculous.

So, we go back in full circle.....we have the high tech facilities to land a plane in the thickest of fog, but we don't have the passengers and we don't have the flights/planes.
We don't have the passengers because the flights are priced cheaper at the other airports, so, we don't operate the planes half empty and so we withdraw the routes.
If only it were that easy to solve the problem
There are a lot of people who want DSA to be a success, but at the same time, there are lots of people who hope it will fail and then Peel Holdings can do what they are good at, which is selling off the land after a failed venture for either housing or the nearby business park and making a profit.

Sanji

Im thinking of using Doncaster for a flight to Gran canaria in dec as its exactly the same price as Manchester, its good flight times and closer to where we live than Manchester.
Maybe we have been lucky with price as reading this people are saying its normally dearer.

I've just noticed that Sanjii said last week that Peel Holdings own Manchester Airport. They don't, well not Manchester International which is what most people think of. They own the City of Manchester Airport which is what most of us know as Barton Aerodrome near to the Trafford Centre (which they also own). This where Alan Sugar bumped his own plane last year. I don't think there's much scope for a second Trafford Centre at Robin Hood as it's too close to Meadowhall but I bow to local knowledge on whether the land would be any use as a business park.

There is oodles of land round there and there was talk previously of building a second terminal to handle business freight. Mind you, there was also talk when I worked there of Mr Branson coming in with his Virgin planes to do the transatlantic flights and bring his big airbus..but it never got off the ground.

It is such a tragedy, Donny could have been such a top notch airport..it had a ready made runway from the days of when it was the Finningly Airbase
(and i still think it should have been called Finningly Airport rather than the joke Robin Hood name) and had the potential to be really big in the area.

We flew from there a few times..Malta, Tenerife, Gran Can (twice)..but now we travel to Manchester or Birmingham as it is cheaper to get the flights and pay for a taxi than it is to go from Donny and get one of the family to drop us off.