Hi,
My girlfriend and I were looking at going on holiday - possibly Goa - but were not sure about there as I am half Pakistani (dad's side) and half Irish (mum's side) but I was born in England and have a full British passport (no dual nationalities and no other passports.
We questioned the Thomas Cook advisor about Visa's and we were told that we would have no problems with obtaining one as we were both British passport holders. We said that if she was certain that we would have no problems then we would book a holiday to Goa. She double checked with her colleague who also said we would have no problems so because of their advice and reassurances, we booked a two week holiday at a cost of £1200.
When it came to appliying for the visa's, the applications were sent back three times with them wanting more information. The third time they came back we went into Thomas Cook and asked for advice as it was three weeks before we were due to fly. They said the only thing they could suggest was we change the destination, so we reluctantly agreed. They rang their head office for permission to do this and it was turned down by three different members of head office staff. We then decided to go to the visa office London to try and get it sorted.
In London we were told that my girlfriends application would take 3 days to process but mine would take 7 weeks! I asked why and was told by the gentleman that it was because my dad was Pakistani. He told us that I probably wouldnt get the visa in time for the holiday but we decided to pay for them to be processed just in case.
In the end, my girlfriends passport was sent back with a visa but mine was sent back with a note saying that my application was still under review and they would be in contact when it has been processed. We lost our holiday and although I paid for my visa, I have still yet to receive it.
In total we have lost out on £1500 in the holiday and chasing up the visa's.
We felt that we were mis-sold the holiday as if we were given the right advice in the first place by the Thomas Cook staff then we would not have booked this destination and therefore not lost out on all that money. Surely this is information that travel agents should know and if they don't, then they shouldn't be giving out the advice! We then decided to write a letter of complaint to Thomas Cook.
A few weeks later they replied and said that the advice we were given was correct and Thomas Cook has done nothing wrong and would not take the matter any further.
We then wrote to ABTA who wrote back stating that we should drop the complaint as it would not get anywhere if we took further action. They state that many similar cases have ended with the complaint being thrown out.
Should we drop the complaint and face upto the fact hat we have lost out on all that money or should we pursue with our complaint? If we should continue, what should we do next?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated as we really dont know what to do next. We have thought about court and arbitration but we dont want to be throwing more money away if it does not go anywhere.
Please help!!
T Cook normally print out a sheet giving you details regarding visas, wonder if they have stopped doing this now ?
I think it clearly states somewhere in the terms and conditions that it is the customers responsibility regarding visas.
I would probably continue with the complaint, but am not qualified to advise as to whether you would have a strong chance of winning.
As for what to do next, I know Mark the mod has just been successful in taking a tour operator to court, so I will ask him to let you know what he did.
Kath x
I think it clearly states somewhere in the terms and conditions that it is the customers responsibility regarding visas.
I would probably continue with the complaint, but am not qualified to advise as to whether you would have a strong chance of winning.
As for what to do next, I know Mark the mod has just been successful in taking a tour operator to court, so I will ask him to let you know what he did.
Kath x
I think it clearly states somewhere in the terms and conditions that it is the customers responsibility regarding visas.
I agree with that statement BUT.... in my opinion you were taking on the responsibility by asking the Travel agent if you'd have a problem and even pointing out all the reasons why you thought you might have a problem. Had the travel agent told you she wasn't sure and you'd best check yourself, fair enough but having told you and confirming the fact with another colleague that there would be no problem, you had no reason to doubt them. After all, they are the experts not you.
I would definitely continue with the complaint and maybe point out the fact I mentioned above. I'm no expert either and like Kath said, I'm not sure how much of a chance you've got but surely the TA has some sort of responsibility for the money you lost. Something has to be done that will stop TA's offering advice willy nilly that can have a detrimental effect on holidaymakers such as yourselves.
Good Luck with it all. Please come back and let us know how you progress.
Thos Cook are not at fault. Under normal circumstances holders of British Passports would not have a problem. In your case the problem lies with the issuing authority for the Visa. They are the people that decide. Thos Cook could have no way of knowing that they would refuse you. We are unfortunately now living in a society where "homeland security" has become a big issue and totally innocent people are getting caught up in the bureaucracy this has created.
fwh
fwh
I disagree
http://in.vfsglobal.co.uk/notices.aspx
It clearly states that it will take 7-8 weeks. If you told the agent all your details and they have been told all your details then you were given wrong information. HOWEVER, the new requirement only came into operation on 1st January so I'm assuming here that you booked after this?
Unfortunately India has caused chaos by changing visa requirements immediately in the time inbetween visits as well- see the Goa forum for the resulting fallout of that. So TAs should have been aware of that at least, making it all the more vital that they should have checked for you before giving out advice.
Saying all that, even if you had booked after the new requirements came into force, if you have no documentary evidence then I can see why it would be difficult to prove.
edit- I note you have a letter from TC saying the advice was correct? There is leeway then, if you booked after January 1st. As you have proof that the advice was wrong.
http://in.vfsglobal.co.uk/notices.aspx
It clearly states that it will take 7-8 weeks. If you told the agent all your details and they have been told all your details then you were given wrong information. HOWEVER, the new requirement only came into operation on 1st January so I'm assuming here that you booked after this?
Unfortunately India has caused chaos by changing visa requirements immediately in the time inbetween visits as well- see the Goa forum for the resulting fallout of that. So TAs should have been aware of that at least, making it all the more vital that they should have checked for you before giving out advice.
Saying all that, even if you had booked after the new requirements came into force, if you have no documentary evidence then I can see why it would be difficult to prove.
edit- I note you have a letter from TC saying the advice was correct? There is leeway then, if you booked after January 1st. As you have proof that the advice was wrong.
I think a few things require clarification:
Were the visas applied for within a couple of days of booking the holiday? If there was a delay in application then that might be deemed the reason that the visa was not issued in time.
Was the start of the holiday less than eight weeks after the holiday was booked? If so, then the advice from the travel agent could be unsound.
However, I think the onus is always on the customer to arrange (and allow sufficient time) to obtain the necessary visa.
Only my thoughts; I admit to not being an expert in these matters.
Were the visas applied for within a couple of days of booking the holiday? If there was a delay in application then that might be deemed the reason that the visa was not issued in time.
Was the start of the holiday less than eight weeks after the holiday was booked? If so, then the advice from the travel agent could be unsound.
However, I think the onus is always on the customer to arrange (and allow sufficient time) to obtain the necessary visa.
Only my thoughts; I admit to not being an expert in these matters.
I think you should accept that you won't see the cash but that doesn't mean give up completely. Someone at TC believed that you should be have been allowed to change destination, so the job now is to get above those that blocked the offer and get the credit back for some future holiday. This will probably need a top down approach and some assistance as well. Once the dust has settled on the election get your MP to look at why someone with a full UK passport is being hassled by the Indian authorities - it's a valid a question for an MP. Then see if he/she can help put pressure on TC.
But you were daft to pay for the visa when it was unlikely to come so don't expect to see that money credited.
At the time they shop staff were suggesting changing the booking how much would you have lost by cancelling?
But you were daft to pay for the visa when it was unlikely to come so don't expect to see that money credited.
At the time they shop staff were suggesting changing the booking how much would you have lost by cancelling?
Your contract is with Thomas Cook. Check the Ts and Cs in the brochure and if there is no breach of contract (which I suspect there won't as it usually the customer's responsibility to get a visa, make sure passport is up-to-date etc) you will not have recompense against them.
I suspect the advise from the travel agent wasn't in writing and if you decide to take them to Court the burden of proof wholly lies with you. You will need to prove that the agent gave wrong information. How you're going to proof that is going to be the key to a succesful Court case. It will be you needing to convince the District Judge that the agent has given wrong information and not the agent having to misprove what they see as an allegation against them.
So unless you have some sort of evidence, my advise would be not take it to Court. Doesn't stop you writing in though to the travel agent to lodge a formal complaint and take it from there.
Mark
I suspect the advise from the travel agent wasn't in writing and if you decide to take them to Court the burden of proof wholly lies with you. You will need to prove that the agent gave wrong information. How you're going to proof that is going to be the key to a succesful Court case. It will be you needing to convince the District Judge that the agent has given wrong information and not the agent having to misprove what they see as an allegation against them.
So unless you have some sort of evidence, my advise would be not take it to Court. Doesn't stop you writing in though to the travel agent to lodge a formal complaint and take it from there.
Mark
Hi all,
Thank you for your replies.
Although it does state in the terms and conditions that the visa is the customers responsibility, we specifically explained to the adviser that we had no idea what to do about visa's as we have never dealt with obtaining them before. We were told to look online and find out further information on there as she wasn't sure about how you apply,. We didn't get any form or bit of paper or anything with information about visa's so Im not sure if they have stopped or not.
We booked the holiday in December 2008 and were due to fly to Goa on 1st March 2009. We found out online that the visa's were for 6 months for my girlfriend and 3 months for myself and they started from the date they were issued and not from the start of the holiday so we first started the application process in mid-December as even with the 7-8 weeks it stated on the VFS website for people of Pakistani descent, that should have been more than enough time to get the applications done and also made sure that the visa's did not run out whilst we were still over there.
I have already wrote a letter to my MP more about what I deem to be racial discrimination from the visa company and Indian High Commission. Depending on what he says really depends on my next course of action ie do I ask him to get involved on the Thomas Cook bit as well or just keep it as it is with him only knowing about my treatment by the visa company.
The problem we are having is that lots of people see it completely different. So many people tell us to take it further as it is not right and we should be entitled to get our money back, but also a lot of people have said that they also don't think the travel agent was in the wrong and it instead is the visa company who are in the wrong. This obviously makes it very confusing for us as both sides have very good points. My point, however, will always be that if we were given the correct advice in the first place by Thomas Cook, then we would not of booked Goa and would of gone somewhere else so the other things that have happened with the visa company would not have happened.
Thank you all very much for your advice as it is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your replies.
Although it does state in the terms and conditions that the visa is the customers responsibility, we specifically explained to the adviser that we had no idea what to do about visa's as we have never dealt with obtaining them before. We were told to look online and find out further information on there as she wasn't sure about how you apply,. We didn't get any form or bit of paper or anything with information about visa's so Im not sure if they have stopped or not.
We booked the holiday in December 2008 and were due to fly to Goa on 1st March 2009. We found out online that the visa's were for 6 months for my girlfriend and 3 months for myself and they started from the date they were issued and not from the start of the holiday so we first started the application process in mid-December as even with the 7-8 weeks it stated on the VFS website for people of Pakistani descent, that should have been more than enough time to get the applications done and also made sure that the visa's did not run out whilst we were still over there.
I have already wrote a letter to my MP more about what I deem to be racial discrimination from the visa company and Indian High Commission. Depending on what he says really depends on my next course of action ie do I ask him to get involved on the Thomas Cook bit as well or just keep it as it is with him only knowing about my treatment by the visa company.
The problem we are having is that lots of people see it completely different. So many people tell us to take it further as it is not right and we should be entitled to get our money back, but also a lot of people have said that they also don't think the travel agent was in the wrong and it instead is the visa company who are in the wrong. This obviously makes it very confusing for us as both sides have very good points. My point, however, will always be that if we were given the correct advice in the first place by Thomas Cook, then we would not of booked Goa and would of gone somewhere else so the other things that have happened with the visa company would not have happened.
Thank you all very much for your advice as it is greatly appreciated.
If there is no breach of contract (and it doesn't look like it) you will have no leg to stand on.
Any embassy / high commission can refuse entry as it sees fit, even without giving reason. If you're not happy with that, you'll need to go to a European Court and make a claim there against most probably your Human Rights.
If you want to pursue this through the Court (and it can't go through the County Court now) it is going to cost you dearly with no guarantee of winning.
Mark
Any embassy / high commission can refuse entry as it sees fit, even without giving reason. If you're not happy with that, you'll need to go to a European Court and make a claim there against most probably your Human Rights.
If you want to pursue this through the Court (and it can't go through the County Court now) it is going to cost you dearly with no guarantee of winning.
Mark
Although it does state in the terms and conditions that the visa is the customers responsibility, we specifically explained to the adviser that we had no idea what to do about visa's as we have never dealt with obtaining them before. We were told to look online and find out further information on there as she wasn't sure about how you apply,.
I'm now getting confused - your original post said that you were told by TC that you wouldn't have a problem getting your visa but now you seem to be saying that they didn't give you any advice other than to confirm that this was your responsibility? Or have I missed something?
Also, are you saying that you didn't apply direct but instead used a company that would arrange the visa on your behalf? it strikes me that if that was the case, if they knew their job they should ahve realised that the ongoing tensions between Indian and Pakistan would have made your situation more complicated than your girlfriend's.
Re the issue of racial discrimination, yes, it does look as if you have been discriminated against on grounds of your ethnicity but India is a sovereign state and UK race discrimination law has no relevance to how and to whom they issue visas. They are literally a law unto themselves just as the UK is in relation to the hoops they make non-UK, non-EU citizens jump through, especially at the moment those who are from India and Pakistan. the only way to pursue that would via the International Court of Human rights and I'm not sure whether India is a signatory or not. if they aren't then that avenue is closed to you as well.
And if you used a visa company as an intermediary here, they can only obtain a visa for you in line with Indian entry rules - they wouldn't be liable under UK discrimation law for the consequences of Indian law though they possibly would be in breach of it if they refused to act for you which is an interesting one.
SM
I am confused too SMa.
In the first post you said the TA said that there would be no problems and now you say they told you to look online to find out more information.
It must have been awful to lose your holiday which cost a lot of money. I'm afraid there now doesn't seem to be much you can do about it.
India is a great place but sometimes you feel you have to almost jump through hoops to get there. Really I feel strongly that TAs should be making sure potential holidaymakers are fully aware of the visa requirements before they take a booking.
In the first post you said the TA said that there would be no problems and now you say they told you to look online to find out more information.
It must have been awful to lose your holiday which cost a lot of money. I'm afraid there now doesn't seem to be much you can do about it.
India is a great place but sometimes you feel you have to almost jump through hoops to get there. Really I feel strongly that TAs should be making sure potential holidaymakers are fully aware of the visa requirements before they take a booking.
The answer is in Marks post:
I would also add that the agents are in no position to rush them. Whilst it states on the web that you need to allow 8 weeks minimum I am sure someone could post saying theirs was completed in 8 days. Some years ago it was reported that there was a 4 to 6 delay in issue/renewal of UK passports - I sent mine off and had it back within the week.
The agent can only give information/advice based on their own experience. If nobody has ever had a problem in their experience then that is they can say.
When you then had a problem the only thing the agent could do was to offer a change. It was your decision to continue with the application.
fwh
Any embassy / high commission can refuse entry as it sees fit, even without giving reason.
I would also add that the agents are in no position to rush them. Whilst it states on the web that you need to allow 8 weeks minimum I am sure someone could post saying theirs was completed in 8 days. Some years ago it was reported that there was a 4 to 6 delay in issue/renewal of UK passports - I sent mine off and had it back within the week.
The agent can only give information/advice based on their own experience. If nobody has ever had a problem in their experience then that is they can say.
When you then had a problem the only thing the agent could do was to offer a change. It was your decision to continue with the application.
fwh
The agent suggested a change but head office would not allow it.
Can we just confirm the dates here. Did this really happen over a year ago?
Hi,
Sorry for any confusion.
We asked the travel agent if we would have any problems getting a visa and we were told by two members of staff that we would not. We asked how we went about getting a visa and we were then told we had to look online as the Indian High Commission use a sub company to deal with all Indian visa applications to which they did not know the name of, (VFS Global) hence us having to look online to find the company and to begin the application process.
We booked the holiday in December 2008 and could not apply for the visa's until mid-December 2009. We were due to travel 1st March 2010.
Hope this clears up any confusion
Sorry for any confusion.
We asked the travel agent if we would have any problems getting a visa and we were told by two members of staff that we would not. We asked how we went about getting a visa and we were then told we had to look online as the Indian High Commission use a sub company to deal with all Indian visa applications to which they did not know the name of, (VFS Global) hence us having to look online to find the company and to begin the application process.
We booked the holiday in December 2008 and could not apply for the visa's until mid-December 2009. We were due to travel 1st March 2010.
Hope this clears up any confusion
That's better.
The advice of the VFS website is that you shouldn't finalise travel until the visa is granted. This is important and it would be helpful to know when that was posted.
Let's continue on the assumption (for the moment) that it was there when you booked. TC told you it was your responsibilty to get the visa. That was correct and they can't be held liable for any problems you have with the Indian government. But as a business they have a liability under the Supply of Goods and Services Act to exercise reasonable care and skill. With me so far? Right, any business that sells holidays to India ought to know the general visa rules and the warning about not finalising travel. So when they took your booking in the knowledge that you didn't have a visa they were not exercising reasonable care and skill - they should not have taken the booking until you had the visa. As an argument it works on paper but trying it in court will be a bit harder! Get legal advice but be prepared to accept a credit note.
The advice of the VFS website is that you shouldn't finalise travel until the visa is granted. This is important and it would be helpful to know when that was posted.
Let's continue on the assumption (for the moment) that it was there when you booked. TC told you it was your responsibilty to get the visa. That was correct and they can't be held liable for any problems you have with the Indian government. But as a business they have a liability under the Supply of Goods and Services Act to exercise reasonable care and skill. With me so far? Right, any business that sells holidays to India ought to know the general visa rules and the warning about not finalising travel. So when they took your booking in the knowledge that you didn't have a visa they were not exercising reasonable care and skill - they should not have taken the booking until you had the visa. As an argument it works on paper but trying it in court will be a bit harder! Get legal advice but be prepared to accept a credit note.
Steve8482
re the statement on the VFS website about not finalising travel plans until a visa has been granted - I'm pretty sure that has always been there, even before the outsourcing of applications to VFS there was the same statement on the High Commission of India website.
Kal1980
One thing that's just occurred to me - when you spoke to the 2 Thomas Cook advisors about whether you'd have any problems getting a visa, did you make it very clear to them that although you were a British passport holder there was some other part nationality (Pakistani/Irish) involved?
If that information wasn't disclosed, that may be the 'get-out' that Thomas Cook are using.
You said you'd read the info on the VFS website about additional processing time for someone in your situation (I personally have read the info and found it very confusing about what was required regarding additional information/documentation).
You first applied for your visas mid-December (giving you a good 10 weeks to get them).
What additional information did they ask for?
Did you provide this additional information? As soon as they asked for it?
Did you ever email or speak to anyone at VFS about how your application was progressing (or not) and ask if they were actually going to issue a visa once they'd got the appropriate documentation?
Actually, re-reading your posts, I'm confused about something.
You said you'd checked on the FS website and so knew about the 7-8 week processing time for you:
Yet you later say that you were told of the 7 week timeframe when you went to London with 3 weeks to go before your holiday:
Did you ask why it was going to take 7 weeks when your application had already been in the system for quite some time?
This would all have been very simple if Thomas Cook had checked on-line and read that Kal's visa application would take longer than usual - BEFORE taking his money.
Even better, with 3 weeks to go to departure TC could have (even if they charged an administration fee) allowed Kal to change the holiday to another destination.
Kal would not have been (so much) out of pocket, would probably have had an enjoyable holiday elsewhere and Thomas Cook would be seen as a 'good' company instead of an inflexible one with staff who possibly give unsound advice.
re the statement on the VFS website about not finalising travel plans until a visa has been granted - I'm pretty sure that has always been there, even before the outsourcing of applications to VFS there was the same statement on the High Commission of India website.
Kal1980
One thing that's just occurred to me - when you spoke to the 2 Thomas Cook advisors about whether you'd have any problems getting a visa, did you make it very clear to them that although you were a British passport holder there was some other part nationality (Pakistani/Irish) involved?
If that information wasn't disclosed, that may be the 'get-out' that Thomas Cook are using.
You said you'd read the info on the VFS website about additional processing time for someone in your situation (I personally have read the info and found it very confusing about what was required regarding additional information/documentation).
You first applied for your visas mid-December (giving you a good 10 weeks to get them).
When it came to appliying for the visa's, the applications were sent back three times with them wanting more information.
What additional information did they ask for?
Did you provide this additional information? As soon as they asked for it?
Did you ever email or speak to anyone at VFS about how your application was progressing (or not) and ask if they were actually going to issue a visa once they'd got the appropriate documentation?
Actually, re-reading your posts, I'm confused about something.
You said you'd checked on the FS website and so knew about the 7-8 week processing time for you:
We booked the holiday in December 2008 and were due to fly to Goa on 1st March 2009. We found out online that the visa's were for 6 months for my girlfriend and 3 months for myself and they started from the date they were issued and not from the start of the holiday so we first started the application process in mid-December as even with the 7-8 weeks it stated on the VFS website for people of Pakistani descent, that should have been more than enough time to get the applications done and also made sure that the visa's did not run out whilst we were still over there.
Yet you later say that you were told of the 7 week timeframe when you went to London with 3 weeks to go before your holiday:
In London we were told that my girlfriends application would take 3 days to process but mine would take 7 weeks! I asked why and was told by the gentleman that it was because my dad was Pakistani.
Did you ask why it was going to take 7 weeks when your application had already been in the system for quite some time?
This would all have been very simple if Thomas Cook had checked on-line and read that Kal's visa application would take longer than usual - BEFORE taking his money.
Even better, with 3 weeks to go to departure TC could have (even if they charged an administration fee) allowed Kal to change the holiday to another destination.
Kal would not have been (so much) out of pocket, would probably have had an enjoyable holiday elsewhere and Thomas Cook would be seen as a 'good' company instead of an inflexible one with staff who possibly give unsound advice.
forgive me as I only have a vague recolection but have read a similar problem on HT......where a man and wife booked a holiday where british passport holders did not need a visa but certain others did....the wife had a foriegn passport...they asked advice in the shop...and booked on the strength of the advice given....were told I think that as she was married to a british passport holder there was no problem.......they got to the airport and the wife was refused boarding as she needed a visa.....they had the same run around as our poster....took it futher and got full refund of holiday ect.....maybe the mods can track it down and post a link....as my exact account may not be correct......tweetie
Tweetie Pie
I think it may have been this post you're referring to http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=138226
I think it may have been this post you're referring to http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=138226
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