Karma? Really? Is that what we are relying on these days to justify theft?

I guess I should go out and do some shoplifting then, someone is bound to steal something from me sooner or later. That way it all works out in the end.....

Another one who has lead a life of "complete honesty", bless you as well.

If not, and are your sure? "Smell the coffee".

Robby

I am a police officer by the way (you can probably tell from my tone ) and should post a definitive answer...

The definition of theft is 'dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive' Appropriation simply means carrying out any act of ownership - Electronic transfers can be property. Belonging to another - means what you would think. In this case it is the tour operators money. Intent to permanently deprive means not planning on returning the property - spending or using goods bought with it is a big clue that you aren't planning on returning it.

What is key - is dishonesty. You need all elements of the offence for there to be an offence. Dishonesty bears an everyday meaning. If you don't know that there has been a mistake then you are not dishonest and cannot be charged. However now you know that there was a mistake any act from now on to try to keep the money would complete all of the elements of the offence and mean you were committing theft.

Only the one question "Sir", are you/have been a 100% honest person ???? Your chosen occupation gives a clue

Robby

Ive just got to say "Be honest and come clean!

Yes they made a mistake, does that mean you should take advantage.........my husband used to run a small business (not travel), ..............not a very big turnover.................and if he made a mistake and someone pocketed the money, it would have been a big problem for us. I

In my opinion its not a matter of "you win some you lose some" but of "knowing" that you are getting something you havent paid for.

And what if this is discovered after the holiday and the person who made the mistake is disciplined or even worse sacked....................how many of us have never made a mistake in their place of employment, would we like repurcussions like this?

So even though its a big corporation I still feel that you are "taking" this money when you know that you shouldnt, and it would spoil the run up to my holiday worrying about it.

Well I certainly don't want this thread to turn into any sort off topic area, suffice it to say I have never done anything 'criminal' which the topic of this conversation clearly is.

I do try not to give it the big you're breaking the law comments on boards like these, but where comments encourage an arrestable criminal offence it's difficult not to.

What if the person has had mis-fortunes/losses in the past and has never received the returned honesty ???? In an ideal world, I agree "total" honesty would be great, but in the real world, well there's another thing.

Only the person in question can make the choice, but for me I'm afraid, it's "swings and roundabouts".

Robby

I have never done anything 'criminal'

Hats off to you Craig, although I'm only guilty of small minor offences myself, I'm not 100% clean , but honest enough to admit it. We are not all the same, and that's why we have different views, but "hats off to you", and others like you, I only wish I could honestly say the same.

It has gone off topic, and no offence to anyone, but a final note - I hope the person in question has a great holiday.

Robby

yeh me too Robby! Sounds like it''ll be a good un

I too would come clean on this one, I think it depends what kind of a person you are really, I have had things happen to me in the past that I would never do to someone else but I couldn't take advantage of a situation to balance those wrongs out if you see what I mean, but that's just me as a person and you can't help who you are

I too would come clean on this one, I think it depends what kind of a person you are really,

Hit the nail on the head there Shell.
Honesty is the best policy
Because people are prepared to swindle, cOn, steal and embezzle is the reason why this country is like it is....stop making excuses that it is OK to join the band wagon.
Some of you couldn`t smell the coffee if they dropped you in Brazil.
No, before anyone asks I have never cheated anyone out of anything, I ain`t a nun either, but I have a conscience that lets me sleep at night...and 2 wrongs don`t make a right or justify the action.
Sort it out and pay the money then you`ll be able to have...Sweet dreams and acquire a moral code in your life, that is sadly lacking these days.
Sanji xxx

Whoa There Officer!

I would love to see you arresting someone for this (or getting it to court).
"Excuse me madam, have you paid for this holiday?"
"Well, actually, I've not received a final bill yet, but as soon as I do, it will be paid in full"
"Hmm interesting, I think I'll arrest you anyway"

Now that really would be "wasting police time".

However now you know that there was a mistake any act from now on to try to keep the money would complete all of the elements of the offence and mean you were committing theft.

Now that really would be "wasting police time".

They wouldn`t actually be wasting police time, because they (police) would be charging you with wasting theirs and theft
Read the above quote again...I think he knows what he is talking about...don`t you?

sanji xxx

I did say in an earlier post that should she fail to disclose, it was possible she could be liable to prosecution - The posting by Craig confirms that.

Why should anyone wish to encourage another to commit a potentially criminal act?

Here on HT members try to give help and advice to assist those who have a problem.

If we accept the view that you should say nothing and hope you get away with it then we are all wasting our time.

Are we expected to adopt double standards? - Anything that a TO does that does not match our expectations then they are cheats and liars - but anything we do is right.

In my view a question has been asked. We have advised ( in their own best interests ) that they should contact the agent. The question has been answered.

If someone does not wish to accept the advice given then that is their problem. All I ask is please don't come back and complain when it all goes wrong.

fwh

I think we are getting a wee bit ahead of ourselves....

Why are you all getting so hot under the collar? The person concerned has not tried to keep any money. They have paid their deposit plus another couple of grand. They won't be due to pay their final balance until approx 8 weeks prior to travel. Standard financial practice for the holiday industry. Where's the f raud??

Another thing I have been thinking about - I am NOT a dishonest person, however, I can't stand incompetence. On quite a few ocassions, I have had to query mistakes made by big companies, and most of the time it is like banging your head off a brick wall. You get passed from person to person to person who haven't got a clue what you are talking about, and you end up spending your hard earned time trying to sort out their problems for them.

As for someone getting the sack for making a mistake, this depends on whether the TO operates a "blame culture" (that's what this country is coming to these days seemingly), or accepts that mistakes can happen for various different reasons, and can mostly be picked up by their own internal audit systems. Standard Financial Practice.

Anyway, I think that the TO will probably notice that they are £2000 short on this persons account, and send them a bill at the appropriate time. Sorted! Evveryone's happy! (Even the nuns).

Oh, just as a matter of interest Craig - what measures would the TO have to have taken before they could report this to you as a crime?

For instance, could they contact you just now and say that they've made a mistake, but haven't discussed the situation with the other party, but would like to make it "official". Or would you have expected them to some steps for recovery of their monies, by sending a bill or letter?

Well said fwh

No there has not been any crime.................yet!

But the question was asked, if this did not come to light..............should the person bring it to the company's attention...............so there is the thought there............

"If it doesnt show up on my bill I COULD chance my arm and go on the holiday and say nothing"

thats what the question was in the first place.............should the person do this!

We really wont know until the final bill arrives whether this will happen or not............BUT we have been asked the question so we are all answering it honestly and trying to give our opinions. The last poster hates incompetence, as I do myself, but incompetence is not as bad as lying by omission.

Every single opinion on here is as valid as anyone elses...............and I have to say Shell's quote says it for me

"It just depends on the type of person you are"

and on my final note:-

(Even the nuns).

At the risk of going round in circles Annied I'll answer your query then let this topic lie.

As I mentioned earlier in cases like this only get investigated where the goods have been taken and not paid for.

In this instance the goods would be the holiday. I think the TO could quite legitamtely say that you were aware of the error when you received the final bill, and taking the holiday knowing that you haven't paid for it constitutes theft. The TO need not do anything else legally, before alerting the police.

What is more likely to happen is the TO notices their mistake and writes to said person at a later stage, said person coughs up the money. There is no time limit within which the TO has to do this in.

The police would only get involved if the said person then refused to pay up, or was being difficult.

This is no different to a quite common scenario. A mysterious credit appears in your bank account. You spend it, then refused to give it back. I have prosecuted cases like this in the past, but most people bite the bullet and pay the money back.

I was only highlighting in my previous post that no matter how you dress it up, this is an offence as soon as they take the holiday, so why not just pay for it now.

I guess if you can sleep soundly knowing that you have cheated someone whether it was their error or not is the issue here. I couldn't; some on here could. Let's agree to disagree

My last little bit as well

I go with Annie's stance, I would wait and see.

As far as the police getting involved, that is "pie in the sky", it would really have to be a last resort. A solicitor, maybe, police ??????????

One thing I hate though, is people who have erred in the past, for whatever reason, criticising others. It's alright to hyperthetically say, "I wouldn't do it", but honestly hand on heart would they.

Make no doubt, these people who have erred and then still criticise are hypocrites - 100% hyprocrites. They are also c on artists, but not only are they trying to c on the members, more importantly they are conning themselves.

Robby