Am surprised at the name change been done so quickly. Good marks to whoever sorted all that out in the early hours.

I think the only way your daughter's friend would have been able to claim on her insurance would have been to have a note from the doctors saying she wasn't fit to travel. What was her 'illness'? Anxiety isn't covered by most insurances so if she had felt too 'scared' to travel then she wouldn't have been able to claim anything back.

Thanks for the reply.

her friend thinks she may have glandular fever and says she has been unwell over the last few months. I am not sure this prevents you from travelling; the most annoying thing is that she literally announced she wasn't going 5 minutes before we were due to leave. In the event we only just made it on time at the airport check-in after the name change.

We were able to change the name at the airport as fortunately my daughter was lead name and they had booked a package deal.

What a predicament - I don't think the friend should expect to receive any money from the person who took her place, as she left the decision until the eleventh hour, and if the sister hadn't agreed to take her place, then would have deprived your daughter of her holiday too.
I actually wonder if she saw her GP or has contacted the Insurance company - after all she was well enough to send a text asking about money only a couple of hours after she decided not to go - I'm sure she would have needed to see a GP straight away to confirm she was unfit to travel if an insurance claim was to be successful! Maybe she's trying to get money the easy was by asking you for it.
If I were you, I'd tell her to take it up with her Insurers - if she has a genuine case I'm sure they will sort it out. And if she is correct and they won't refund her, then she should accept her loss, as her decision not to go was done at the last minute - and someone only stepped in to prevent her friend from losing her holiday! I can see this turning messy when your daughters return. Why not ring Citizens Advice and tell them what happened, see what they advise.

No she shouldn't get her money back. Tell her to claim of her insurance so she will find that it's not covered.

Your daughter could well have lost her holiday if she didn't have a sister to go with her and I doubt the "friend" would have reimbursed her seeing it was her fault.

luci

I cannot see any problem here. You decide for whatever reason not to take a holiday at the last minute. You therefore claim on your insurance, providing that you meet any criteria on health etc that they state in the policy. Not an unusual situation.

If someone, as in this case, steps in and takes the holiday in your place then they should reimburse you, less the cost of the name change and so mitigate your loss. They should not just get a holiday on the cheap. It would be interesting to hear the view of the insurers here.

The only problem as I see it is "friendship." Which in the circumstances, if the person unable to take the holiday is not recompensed will become rather strained.

fwh

If a new passenger took her place (you were able to do a name change, luckily on the day, that was good of the Tour Op) it really is not is not her concern. Sadly she choose not to travel as she felt unwell and at that time made the choose knowing that your daughter would be left to travel alone. She may too have decided not to go if someone else hadn't be able to step in. So it is her loss financially.

I can understand if she found someone to take her palce a few weeks before, then of course I think it would be reasonable to expect the other person to pay for the holiday. But this is different.

It doesn't matter that someone went in her place. If they went or not, everything was paid for and the flight and the hotel would not refund the cost to her because one less person turned up. Your daughter would have travelled alone and stayed in the room alone.

The person who didn't travel needs apply for a refund from her holiday insurance company, due to her not being able to travel because she was ill. If she simply choose not to travel on the day of departure and doesn't have a valid reason (as in policy), she will not be able to make a claim. They may ask for a doctors note, etc. If she didn't bother to get one, then they may not refund her at all anyway.

So do not refund her personally. Tell her to seek any refund from her insurance policy, it doesn't matter that someone else went.

Thanks for he replies. The biggest problem we may have is that the insurance company have told her they won't pay as someone else took the holiday. (thanks again for the advice I will contact the CAB) With absolutely no exaggeration we were due to leave thew house in 5mins when she said she did not want to go, obviously with this being thrown upon us so suddenly it did delay our departure by 1/2hr luckily my daughter was lead passenger and at the desk at the airport they were quickly able to change the name just in time for us to go to the priority desk to check them in. TBH I was considering what may be a reasonable sum as recompense, but her behaviour has fallen quite short of that of a friend, she has demonstrated no concern for the person she was going to let lose the holiday. My other daughter who took the holiday did not do so to benefit from a free holiday, but to stop my other daughter losing hers. How are you supposed to make a judgement in 5 mins. The girl did not appear unwell, she was not in pain, vomitting etc, she was well enough to be left alone until her mother who lives 10 mins away collected her nearly 1hr later. Again TBH if that was my daughter who was too ill to travel I would have been round straight away. Infact the girl did not even phone her mother until I suggested she should do so as she felt too ill to travel. Another thing this girl was on facebook 5 hours later asking a friend if they had a spare ticket to a festival this weekend. Does that sound like someione too ill to travel?

A little puzzled when you say your daughter would have lost her holiday. If a holiday is booked and paid for two and one does not go then it is simply a no show. There is no penalty for your daughter.

I agree with the insurance refusal as someone took the holiday in place of the person booked. Her claim legally is against the person who took her place. They will view it as she had in effect mitigated her loss by selling or gifting it.

Might not be a happy state of affairs but she could, if she wished, sue via the small claims court for the cost of the holiday less the change of name charge.

fwh

I think what the OP means is that her daughter would not have wished to travel alone - effectively losing out on her holiday too by this "friends" last minute decision not to travel. I know I would not have been happy to let my teenage daughter go abroad on her own, and I am sure she would not wish to holiday alone either.

Yes the OP's other daughter went on the holiday - so her sister could have the holiday she had had planned and saved for, perhaps even booked time off work for - she did the decent thing and stepped in at the last moment. The OP has no evidence that the "friend" actually was ill, infact it sounds very unlikely that she was if she was looking for festival tickets. If this girl has no medical evidence of being too ill to travel, her own daughter would have been unable to be claim through her Insurers and lost out both on taking her holiday and being reimbursed, had she been anable to find someone else to travel with. There was no guarantee her daughter would have been reimbursed at all.

I can see the other side of the argument too though, if the "friend" really was ill and has lost the right for a refund (assuming she has been declared medically fit to travel etc). It's one of these difficult situations where nobody's right - or wrong! What did she say at the time when your other daughter stepped into her place? As fwh says, it would be interesting to see how the Insurers view this situation - the only way you will find out is if the "friend" submits a claim - let her do that and take things from there.

If the friend was able to get a doctors certificate that she wasn't fit to travel then both parties could have claimed for the lost holiday. However if she didn't get the necessary medical proof and was to go down the legal route I would have though the lead name could counter sue because she would then have lost her money too. One claim would therefore cancel the other.

this is 2 adults going on holiday and 1 pulling out at the last minute for a medical reason.
the correct procedure would have been for the friend to go straight to the doctor/hospital and get a certificate which would have been accepted by the insurance company and both would have got paid out by the insurance.
because this was not done, there will not be any insurance pay out.
the daughter could still have gone on holiday, on her own, and her friend would have lost her money.
if the daughter did not want to go on her own then that is a different issue, and there may have been a possible claim on her insurance.
the holiday did not "belong" to the daughter or sister, but to the friend who did not go, and without her agreement to transfer the holiday to the sister (the fact she texted them about a refund while they were at the airport would seem to indicate that she had not given approval/been fully consulted)then i think that morally, if not in fact legally,then the sister should recompense the friend for the cost of the holiday, less any expenses to change the name, phone calls, inconvenience etc.
i do not see that the sister should get a free holiday just because the daughter did not want to go on her own.
i suppose at the end of the day everyone has to decide whether there is still a friendship to maintain.

All I can think is well done eevie2468 for quick thinking and salvaging the holiday.

If your daughter wanted to go on holiday with her sister, she would have gone on holiday with her sister in the first place. But she didn't.

It sounds like the friend was possibly too immature to understand the financial consequences. However, it wasn't the holiday you daughter dreamed of or anticipated, so it to her looses a lot of the value to my mind.

It's a moral maze. I suspect I know what i'd do in your situation (either tell her to take a running jump depending on current friendship status) or pay a token amount, maybe 1/4, over a period of months. You havn't said if paying for your other younger daughter would financially impact upon you, but you shouldn't suffer (presuming you are paying).

However, I suspect that many peoples comments here, whilst rational, might not entirely reflect what they would do if they were put in your position. However, I'd definitely like to say you've made the correct choices so far, and i'd like to know if they had a nice holiday?

the correct procedure would have been for the friend to go straight to the doctor/hospital and get a certificate which would have been accepted by the insurance company and both would have got paid out by the insurance.

The friend did not allow time for this she literally said 5 mins before leaving the house that she felt unwell. My main concern at the time was that my daughter did not lose her holiday.

if the daughter did not want to go on her own then that is a different issue, and there may have been a possible claim on her insurance.

She could have gone alone, but wouldn't have she booked a holiday with a "friend" not a single holiday. TBH I did not have time to think about insurance or anything I just had time to think about salvaging the holiday for my daughter and her not losing £500

legally,then the sister should recompense the friend for the cost of the holiday, less any expenses to change the name, phone calls, inconvenience etc.

This is the biggest issue, I was considering at the airport what may be a fair amount to offer the friend for her lost holiday but her behaviour since has incensed me. I don't believe she was ill for the following reasons:
She had no outward signs
She said she that she knew she was GOING to be ill
Does a person too ill to travel 5 mins before they leave feel well enough to:
TXT and worry about their money
Not phone your parent straight away to tell them you are ill
Stay alone in a strange house for 1 hour before their parent collects them
Would a mother wait an hour before collecting a child who was so ill they could not travel; I certainly wouldn't
Go on facebook at midday asking for festival tickets at the weekend
Change facebook status to "in a relationship"

i do not see that the sister should get a free holiday just because the daughter did not want to go on her own.

At the time I did not consider it a free holiday, just the only way my other daughter would not lose hers. At the end of the day I can see that my daughter may have a free holiday and was happy to pay a small amount in compensation but no-where near the full amount. Thomas Cook would not have charged the full amount for this very last minute holiday.

suppose at the end of the day everyone has to decide whether there is still a friendship to maintain.

After her behaviour, probably not.

Be very careful whether you are going to offer her a nominal amount as this could be seen as an admission of liability should she wish to pursue the full amount.

luci

the holiday did not "belong" to the daughter or sister, but to the friend who did not go, and without her agreement to transfer the holiday to the sister (the fact she texted them about a refund while they were at the airport would seem to indicate that she had not given approval/been fully consulted)

I'm not so sure that the situation is a clear cut as this because in legel terms the whole holiday booking and contract is with the lead name - in this case the OPs daughter. We've seen numerous instances on the forum where this has been crucial. Was there not a case that cropped up here where the lead name took somebody's name of the booking and substituted it for another without consulting them? And we've had numerous cases where the lead name was landed with the cost of stumping up for the 'friend' who pulled out without paying the balance and after it was too late to cancel?

I take your point that the sister possibly has a moral obligation to offer to pay something but I'm not sure that she is under any legal obligation.

i do not see that the sister should get a free holiday just because the daughter did not want to go on her own

This cuts both ways - the daughter probably doesn't see why her friend should be refunded the cost of the holiday just because her sister was able to take her place at short notice. In a way it is irrelevant whether the sister did or didn't take her place - if the OPs daughter had decided to go on her own then the friend would have had to claim on her insurance or lose the total cost.

If the friend is able to produce documentary evidence that would have been accepted by her insurer as proof that she was unfit for travel and can produce documentary proof that the insurer won't pay out because someone took her place, then one compromise might be for the sister to pay her compensation based on the cost of the holiday less the value of the:

- excess on the friend's insurance policy
- cost of the name change,
- any phonecalls made to confirm that the name change could be done,
- any expenses incurred by the sister as a result of having to travel at short notice,

If the above documentary evidence can't be producd then this looks like a 'disinclination to travel' and it is irrelevant whether the sister could or couldn't go, whether the daughter did or didn't want to go on her own. If you decide not to go at the last minute then as an adult she has to accept the consequences of this. Would she have still gone if the sister couldn't have taken her place? If the answer is 'no' then I don't see what legal right she has to press for compensation.

The only problem as I see it is "friendship." Which in the circumstances, if the person unable to take the holiday is not recompensed will become rather strained.

Whether the friend who couldn't take the holiday is compensated or not, I would say that the friendship has already been taken to the limit by her last minute decision not to travel and not to seek immediate medical advice and assistance. I can't imagine that the OPs daughter will ever trust this friend again.

SM

Be very careful whether you are going to offer her a nominal amount as this could be seen as an admission of liability should she wish to pursue the full amount.

I didn't think of that, Thank you.

Given the girl's behaviour I do not feel morally obligated to her. My biggest problem is her insurance said it won't pay beacuse someone took her place and she did say that the doctor thinks she may have glandular fever. She did not say she got a doctors certificate to say she was unfit to travel, I don't know if she has or hasn't. Would she be able to get one hours or a day or two after the event, or do you have to be physically unable to travel at the time ie 6.15 on wed Morning? She did not ask to seek medical attention and as mentioned her parent did not attend straight away. Would her insurance company discuss paying out if she could not recover the money?

If she chose the legal route would she sue the lead booker or the person who took her place?

Many thanks for all of the replies

If she chose the legal route would she sue the lead booker or the person who took her place?

It would be the lead name as they would be the one responsible for the contract for the holiday and what subsequently happened to it.

I'm wondering how the friend paid your daughter for her share, if it was cash she might not have any proof she actually paid for the holiday in the first place which I'm sure she would need to sue.

Perhaps the next step would be to ask the friend what exactly she wants back, if the holiday cost £500 she might be happy to take a much smaller sum to have cash in her pocket now.

I'm with Jimd-f on this.

In normal circumstances if someone is unfit to travel it's a doctor who must decide this. A certificate is then issued. In those circumstances where two are travelling the insurance would cover for cancellation of the whole holiday.

Because this was all very last minute there wasn't the time for any of this to be done - however the insurers can't be expected to cough up if someone else took the place of the original traveller. If the procedure that is laid down in the insurance terms and conditions is not adhered to then no claim will be paid out for.

However, we get down to the moral issues - it boils down to whether the girls are to remain friends or not. In any case, there will be no insurance pay out so it's not urgent. I suspect, though, if the friend decided to take the matter to court they might go in favour of her because essentially someone else had her holiday and should pay for it. Courts tend not to take any notice of moral issues. But you never know with these things.

I would tell her that you are going to wait until your daughters get back and then you will decide what to do. I understand why you don't think she deserves any money back but essentially second daughter has had a free holiday so perhaps giving back 50% of the cost would smooth the waters. You have to ask yourself if neither of the girls had ended up going and the correct procedure still hadn't been carried out so the insurance wouldn't have paid up - would you have let it lie or go to the friend for recompense?

my husband recently took ill on holiday the day we were due to fly home and i rang the insurance co and they said without a letter from the dr saying he wasnt fit to fly they wouldnt pay for another flight home, going by this i think she wouldnt have got a refund even if your other daughter didnt go on holiday because she didnt go to the drs before the flight , leaving it so late. i personally wouldnt pay her the price of a holiday as she really left your daughter not a lot of options leaving it so late, sounds like she decided not to go for other reasons than being ill judging by what you have said. as others have said think its best to decide what your daughters think when they return