I think you have to read between the line of this. We have a one sided story, that if you look at closely and ask questions you may see another side. Let me give you a couple of examples.

We were able to change the name at the airport as fortunately my daughter was lead name and they had booked a package deal

Now the clue is in the package deal, Airlines will only change a name up to 3 hours before flight. If its a package deal you have to deal with the company. Now i would like to know who the holiday was booked through for one. I did read it was an early morning flight. Most package deal changes would involve a telephone call and you are looking at maybe office hours. Now someone may be able to tell me differently. In any event i would like to know the company as this was done very quickly.

My second point is that the girl paid by credit card, did she pay her share or all of it. Again i ask this because if you make changes, they need your card details, or am i wrong again.

Lastly the one a struggle with an being a father to 2 girls is having to almost force the younger sister to go. I do not know of many teenagers who are offered a holiday not wishing to go, call me a cynic but i do struggle to understand that one.


Look at the posts again
5 mins before leaving the girl drops out of the holiday, thats not me saying it thats the mother. Now we are expected to believe a discussion went on to try and get her to go, then another discussion to get little sister to go, who remember was reluctant. Now they have to pack little sister and get to the airport ( lets be realistic here you would have planned before all of this to get to the airport a least 2-3 hours before depature)
I am sorry but i can not believe all this was achieved with a name change in the time scale.

My main point is for what ever reason the 2 sisters had a holiday, what is unreasonable about asking the younger sister to pay less the cost of the name change ect. Or are people saying that if you are a lead passenger you can change a name on the ticket and let someone else go for the cost of the name change and screw the other person over.Then make out it was a hardship to change the name and you had to almost force the person to go. They changed the name on the ticket no insurance company will ever pay out for illness, because she is not on any booked holiday(the name was changed) So pay the girl what she is owed less any money paid out for changes. Someone tell me what is really wrong in giving the money back less expenses please because i can not understand why we are judging someone so harshly. No one lost out here if the mother takes out her expenses.

Steve

Yes this girl is irrresponsiable and caused a lot of trouble. But she is 19 young and payed for her holiday, we all make mistakes in life and i know we must learn from them. Give her something back.

You're not the other girl's father, by any chance?

Give her something back?
Based on what we have been told by the OP, who has presented her side of the story with clarity, this irresponsible girl deserves a big fat £zero.

Like Alsacienne, I've read your posts and agree 100% wih Alsacienne.
Admittedly based on what the OP says (which I have no reason (IMHO) to disbelieve), this girl had NO intention of going on this holiday and even if she'd gone hot-foot to a doctor, I doubt that she would have been given a medical certificate so that she could claim back her half of the money.
This is based on the OP's Facebook evidence about this girl being out and about on the same weekend that she should have gone on holiday.

Argue all you want but the way i see it is take off what ever expenses they had to pay for changes at the last minute, and pay the girl the rest back.

So you're saying that the younger girl (or her family) should have to pay for a holiday she probably didn't want to go on, certainly at such short notice?
And that the older girl should have to have a holiday that SHE didn't want because of this 'irresponsible girl'?
I don't agree at all.

Steve - I too am starting to wonder if you are the father of the girl who pulled out LOL!!

I agree with everything Prettypollycat has said above.

Now big sister could not cancel her holiday, as the insurance would not pay out.She could have gone on her own leaving her friend to prove to the insurance company that she was unfit to fly.

As a father of 2, are you really suggesting this was a reasonable option, as a mum of 2 teenagers I would be aghast at the thought of my daughter going away alone!

I must admit, I did wonder myself about Steve's involvement.

I have to say that I can definitely now see two sides. I am a bit confused as to how a holiday company was contacted so early in the morning. I might try them the next time I book as I cant even get anyone to answer during opening hours
But as the OP has not been online for some time it is perhaps best to leave this until they have responded or added anything.

Remember steve an actual financial loss would need to be proved in law to sue successfuly for compensation ....so proof insurance would have paid out if there had been no name change would be needed....the same documentation required by the insurance company would be required by the court...to prove the friend suffered an actual financial loss as a direct consequence of the name change.

Unless friend can supply the documented evidence now for the courts , would mean she couldn't supply it with in a reasonable lapse of time of her deciding not to go on holiday....therefore insurance would not have even considered her claim...therfore would not have paid her any compensation....therefore no actual financial loss was suffered by the friend.

The courts dont deal in if's or but's...but in hard facts needing sustainciating evidence as proof...in this case doctors certificates obtained within a reasonable lapse of time of the friends decision not to fly.

Therefore my advice would be if the friend can supply doctors cert...then disscussions are needed between all parties....if not end of dialouge.

It is a reasonable request by eevies daughter to ask to see the doctors certificate....as it is she who the friend is seeking compensation off...with out this she is within her rights to question the fact of liability.....she is only liable for actual financial loss incurred which can be proved by friend.

If friend refuses to provide the proof eviees daughter need in order to accept any liability....then takes it to court to try to claim for cost of holiday....the court will take a dim view even if proof is then given to the court....would see it as a waste of the courts time...could even if friend won her case deem it reasonable for friend to pay the courts costs ...not eviees daughter....due to fact if proof had been given to eviees daughter the case would not have needed to go to court.

If doctors cert shown to eviees daughter and signed to say she had seen it ...the whole situation would be different..

Can we start with your point
Based on what we have been told by the OP, who has presented her side of the story with clarity, this irresponsible girl deserves a big fat £zero.
You said it right there Based and her side of the story T hats all we have to go on. I would rather base my opinion on facts.
Which to me are 2 girls pay for a holiday, 1 drops out, a sister takes that spot, a point of law here is that she has replaced drop out girl on the package. That would mean to me that she has taken on the holiday, so therefore pay for it.
A point i would put out for further discussion is how easy is it to change a name on a ticket. Lets put an example or a different spin to this story, as in same people. Here goes.
2 friends go into travel agents and book a holiday, both pay there share by credit card. But as we know only one can be lead passenger.
Now lets say 6 months later a week before the holiday the friends fall out. Now say the lead passenger wants to take someone else instead ( someone help me out here how easy is it to take the other persons name off, can this be done without their knowledge). Lets say the friend agrees to this and the sister gets put on the ticket. Now when that's all done say the sister did not want to pay for the holiday. Would it not be easy to say the other girl dropped out at the last minute forcing a change so that the holiday would not be lost. Sounds to easy to me. That would suggest to me that if you have booked a holiday for next year with a group of friends and you are not the lead passenger, beware because you can be removed from the ticket. And according to most of the OP's on here as long as someone can say they were taking someone else to save the holiday,you do not have to pay for it. To me that's a joke. If it went to court you would expect the person to prove that they paid for said holiday, and then prove that someone else took your place
When you go to court you are going to get two sides, one will say this happened another will say that happened. I would argue that as soon as the name was changed on the ticket the sister's took the responsibility of the holiday on, that also means the cost.Can someone from a holiday company explain what happens if you pay for a holiday, and someone removes you from the ticket. Where does the burden of proof lie. If you paid by credit card? can you prove your name was removed. Like I said I have 2 daughters, and one is going away with friends next year, however she is not the lead passenger. So what are her rights.

I have read through all the posts, and there is a lot of unanswered questions.

Fiona
I do agree with you that Steve raises some interesting points regarding contacting a holiday company at such an early hour.
However, I've fortunately never had to contact a holiday company that early and never had to make a last-minute change to a holiday - whether paid by credit card or not - so I can't comment on whether it's possible to do so or not.
All I can say (again) is that the OP has presented her side of the story with clarity and at this stage I have no reason to disbelieve what she's said.

I don't agree with THIS comment from Steve:

Lastly the one a struggle with an being a father to 2 girls is having to almost force the younger sister to go. I do not know of many teenagers who are offered a holiday not wishing to go, call me a cynic but i do struggle to understand that one.

The younger girl may have had commitments (Saturday job, horse riding, dancing lesson, boyfriend - anything at all) that may have made her reluctant to drop everything and go on a holiday she'd not prepared for.

Fiona, I take your final point and agree that further comment from the OP would clarify the points recently raised.

Tweetie pie I agree with you, however I am at a loss about proof of illness.Lets say i have booked a holiday next week to go with a friend and they are the lead passenger.Then i change my mind.My friend finds his brother to go with and pays for the name change. Then they decide not to pay me and then say i backed out of the holiday and told them i was to ill to travel.
You Say
The courts dont deal in if's or but's...but in hard facts needing sustainciating evidence as proof...in this case doctors certificates obtained within a reasonable lapse of time of the friends decision not to fly.

As you say the courts do not deal in if or buts. They will ask can i prove i paid for my ticket. Can i prove the name was changed.
We can all come up with a lie to get out of paying.
Even if the girls woke up in the morning and said she did not want to go and was faking illness.She would only have to argue that she sold the holiday on to her friends sister. The evidence to prove that would be the name change on the ticket. The Mum is admitting the name was changed and that the girl paid for the holiday by credit card. So why should she get out of paying. I am not saying the girl should get all her money back. The mum needs to take out her expenses. Is that so hard to do

I hear what you are saying Steve but I think it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the name change. If it is as the OP says (and I have no reason to disbelieve her) then the ‘friend' would have lost all her money had she been unable to furnish the insurance company with a claim form. This would have had a section completed by her GP or hospital stating when she was seen by the medic, when her condition was first diagnosed and when she was advised not to travel. If this was an existing condition she would have had to have declared this, and got it covered, by her insurance company.

Courts do deal with proof. It's as much up to the friend to prove that her name was removed without her knowledge, or against her wishes, or that she would have been able to claim back (less any excess) from her insurance. I still think that if the friend can produce the medical proof needed then there is an obligation to compensate her for her monetary loss. Without it however??

I would rather base my opinion on facts.

Steve, I take your point that none of us - except possibly the original poster - know what the facts are in this case. Therefore, it seems pointless and potentially libellous to then go on and speculate about the original poster's actions and intentions in the way that you have done. Her last message on this thread was made on 3rd October - close to 4 weeks ago now - when she said that she was going to consult with Ros as soon as Ros returned to work from holiday. I'm not sure why this thread, therefore, keeps re-surfacing. Assuming that the OP did/has now spoken to her, then Ros will have advised her by now on whether it is in her interests to say to the other family 'sue me then' or alternatively advised her that she would be better settling with the other family out of court. In the circumstances, I can see no point in continuing endless speculation as to her motives or about what 'really' happened.

The situation is clearly still the same - some of us thought she should offer the other family something, others thought she should go tell them to go whistle - and that still remains the case. Until such time as she comes back to update us, what is the point of the rest of us arguing about it in her absence?

SM

I can sort of see where Steve is coming from.

Two people go on holiday. Each person pays their bit. One person drops out last minute.

Scenario 1: The remaining person goes on holiday on her own with the second person having to claim the money back, possibily through insurance.

Scenario 2: The remaining person (who I presume has to be the lead passenger as a name change was made) makes a name change and therefore effectively cancels the current contract and enters into a new contract. The person not travelling now , can't claim any monies back as the original contract no longer exists.

By the 2nd sister going on holiday, it may have resulted in the right to claim monies being taken away from the person that didn't travel.

Remember, that at the time this right was potentially taken away, it wasn't established whether the illness was or wasn't genuine.

Mark

I was wondering if eviee had contacted Ross....please post us a note eviee even if just to tell us you have contacted Ross..

About no teenager not wanting to go on hols with sister....

I have 4 boys aged 37 to 15.....in same situation as above here's how my lot would have answered..

youngest asked to go with eldest....wow ye great will go as I am right now...what a bit of luck

eldest asked to go with youngest....your not going on your own...we'have a great time

middle 2 boys....ye ok but u owe me one

any combination of the the three eldest....a mix between you owe me one and we;ll have a great time

the youngest asked to go with the second youngest.....no way 2 weeks with you
the next to youngest asked to go with youngest ....will go cause mum wants me too you really owe me

the holiday the 2 youngest on their own would have would be holiday from hell

Steve, I take your point that none of us - except possibly the original poster - know what the facts are in this case. Therefore, it seems pointless and potentially libellous to then go on and speculate about the original poster's actions and intentions in the way that you have done.

I point of Fact SMa The poster put forward a case into this public domain without reply from the said girl. I would say that i have everyright to question what she has written to establish the truth, And to form my own opinion of the story and put that forward as an opinion. Having said that the posters silence would suggest a resolution of some sort has been found. But as this is a forum for discussion and some of her points have raised question that i would like to ask.
Now i am sure its the job of the forum moderators to decide if my comments, opinions and questions are suitable or not and not yours. So if you do not mind i will continue to comment.

The question i would like answered from all this is around the lead passenger. Does the lead passenger have the right to change a passengers name without their consent?. Does that mean the person who is removed has no rights? My daughter is going away with friends next year and is not the lead passenger. Does that mean if she falls out with the lead passenger and that person removes her from the ticket and puts someone else on it. What rights does she have?

steve6447 wrote:

The question i would like answered from all this is around the lead passenger. Does the lead passenger have the right to change a passengers name without their consent?. Does that mean the person who is removed has no rights? My daughter is going away with friends next year and is not the lead passenger. Does that mean if she falls out with the lead passenger and that person removes her from the ticket and puts someone else on it. What rights does she have?

To get this information 100% accurate I would suggest a forum, where everybody offers their own opinions without being experts, is probably not the best place to get the answers to your question. Maybe Citizens Advice, the Travel Agent or the Tour Operator that your daughter is travelling with would be better placed to give you the answers you are looking for.

Therefore, it seems pointless and potentially libellous to then go on and speculate about the original poster's actions and intentions in the way that you have done.

Steve is not the only person who has commented. Various points of view have been put forward without any real facts.
It has been said we only have the version of events put forward by the OP. There are always two sides to any story and whilst we may express our own personal views they are based only on what we have been told.

As I have said before all the views expressed do not move things any further forward. It is a matter that can only be sorted out by the parties concerned. I suggest that until we hear further from the OP then there is no point in continuing the discussion.

fwh

steve....think that would stand as a breach of contract....as one was created between the lead passenger and others on the booking....the lead passenger has the duty of care to see all interests are protected including her own....it works the other way though as well....the others on the booking also have a duty of care to the lead passenger to fulfill there part of the contract by paying their agreed share and carrying out agreed arrangements.....unless an unfair contract can be proved....example expecting someone to go who was genuinely ill or had suffered a bereavement .....the same conditions an insurance company would accept

If lead passenger changed a name without consent ...they would have failed in their duty to care and been held liable there....they could claim contract became unfair as someones intests were compromised by it .

I think it wise in situations where this type of arrangement is made that all parties have a copy of all paperwork they are named on....as proof a contract exists.....if their part of contract is interfered with...it would be for lead name to explain why ...if explanation means the lead name has not fulfilled their duty of care....then they could be deemed liable.

I am not a proffessional of any kind but from what knowledge I have think this is how the land lies

Im just back from holiday myself today and caught up on all of this once again.

I was one of the posters expressing the view to pay the friend and her family zilch. However after reading Steves posts I do start to wonder about the timespan involved in telling about the illness/asking younger sister to go/packing/changing a name all in the space of the time it was going to take the two girls to leave for the airport. Could a namechange have been done so near the time of departure?

In no way am I saying that I am doubting the veracity of the first post - but it would be interesting to hear the "other side" of this also.

The reason Im posting is also to do with the lead person being able to change a name - in October last year my daughter fell out with her friend - she was supposed to be going on holiday 6 weeks later. My daughters friend was the lead name on the booking and thankfully was able to "sell" the holiday to another mutual friend of theirs. My daughter took the "loss" of the name change and administration fees but the other girl DID pay her for her holiday. To change the name my daughter had to go into the Travel Agents with identification and give her permission for the name to be changed.

Did the "friend" in this case do this? Could a namechange be made merely by lead passenger phoning or turning up at the airport and asking? It sounds strange to me if this would be allowed so easily - otherwise whats to stop anyone who is a lead name changing plans without the other persons permission? It doesnt say in any of the posts that the girl who didnt go gave any permission to either an agent or TO to "authorise" this?

I guess theres two ways to look at this really. The two sisters got a holiday which they enjoyed. The friend changed her mind, didnt go and now has suffered the loss of the whole holiday. I suppose a sense of "fairness" for me would be to pay the other family - say half the holiday costs.

Perhaps "legally" they dont "have" to but I think its the fairest outcome for all concerned, because I have no doubt that if it ever did go down a "legal" route there is no way this girls family will just say "she changed her mind and let the other girl down at the last minute".......

And to those who are wondering why this keeps getting brought back - for me its terribly interesting to see how other posters view this whole scenario, okay we arent experts but any discussion of it perhaps gives someone else a bit of perspective if something similar happened to them......

youve made some good points there tootsie....and like you I'm interested in how easily it could be done.....I do know if someone pulls out or doesnt pay...its the lead passenger who needs sort it out as they are responsible for the final paying of the bill....so maybe they can also just change the names....maybe it was arraged in your daughters case ....so she couldnt say it was done without her consent...it was the sensible way to do it....probably for your daughter too....as I take it the finacial side got sorted at the same time the name change took place....

I have only had to change childrens names before ...not my own...but relatives or friends childrens names...when one has for what ever reason not been able to come and another has come instead..Ive never had a problem....once I changed a name on the tuesday morning and was traveling on the wed morning.....too late for paper work to pass between me and company...but changed at point of departure ect.

Correct me if Im wrong....as Ive never need use it Im a bit vague about how I could have used it ...or what it was really for......but dont they give you an emergency number for out of hours emergencies....

Ive been thinking could it be done in space of time needed....in my case probably but would be touch and go....and the whole thing would be a non starter if it wasnt possible to get the name changed at such short notice....this is how I thought Id manage it.....

firstly I plan to get to check- in when it opens or as soon as possible after....so would have given had atleast an hours grace there ...then I allow 45 mins in case anything went wrong ....so I would have had 1hr 45mins for emergencies before I missed the 2 hr before checkin dead line....some are only an hour I think....

I am packed and my bags are loaded in car the night before again to allow emergency time....incase I oversleep...which I have done before now...

I should have left ....but give the girl 30 mins to really think about it change her mind and go...in my mind Im 30mins late ...but in reality Im 1hr 15 early.

I realise she really isnt going to go and need to make a decision....during her 30mins thinking time...I was thinking already what should I do if she really wont go.

I get younger sister up ...explain her sister needs her to go with her....tell her to pack a case as best she could....whilst you phone the emergency number to see if name can be changed...15mins less....

elder sister helps younger sister pack while Im on phone....at the girls age they have loads of stuff they can throw in a case....

I get through on emergency number and quickly explain situation....details of name change given over phone....and advised would be finalised at the airport at the company desk...30mins ...during this time girls packed a case...and are ready to go..

so now Im only 30mins ahead in reality

company desk in airport aware of situation...all done via computer and just needs signature...

I would have probably got the girls to check in with minutes to spare